Ya, i must agree with cornflakes....this whole image thing sucks, love for the music.The truth is that i think people that play a instrument can appreciate any type of gendre , it may not be your cup of tea but at least u can tell if it is good or not...

Quinus Kok wrote: While i was on the site, and listening to a whole bunch of what ppl came up with, i started to wonder why the hell is the majority of the artists in SA that actually make money so fucking bad at what they do.

So here is a debate to list ur views on why u think the bad ones get all the money and all the best music and talent gets overlooked and then guitarists are forced to play as session players.........

I don't think it's an SA thing. Look at how people in other parts go gaga for West Life, Pussy Cat Dolls etc.

People define "good" and "bad" differently, or, IMO, don't necessarily buy CDs and go to shows FOR THE MUSIC.

You get guys like me (who, of course, have it sussed) who listen to something and ask themselves things like "are these lyrics interesting" and/or "does this guy have chops" and/or "is there something novel going on in all of this". I think for a lot of people the music is the background or soundtrack to something else.

I can't understand why most of the stuff played on the radio is of interest to anybody alive (or dead) - but somebody somewhere must be paying for it.

tokolos wrote: Yeah, it's a hectic industry. I reckon at the end of the day it's all about shifting units; so the broader the target market, the more the moneys and profits. Indie bands allready have a tough time internationally, so imagine all the obstacles SA bands have to face.

I think that situation may be changing. The indy market overseas is getting busier and there's more money there and a different financial model. I suspect a lot of those artists are deriving their income from live shows and maybe composer's royalties - not from CD sales. In fact it may be the case that the CD is there to promote the live shows - not the other way around.

The financial model is different too. There are lot of smaller labels who will work on the basis that you come to them with finished, recorded product and they distribute it for you and help you find the marketplace. They don't take as much per CD, but then they didn't have to fund the recording in the first place. And because YOU funded the recording, you get more of a say in the artistic decisions.

In terms of SA I must confess to being pretty out of touch with the market. There are some acts/artists that I know a little about who are making a living from their performances and recordings - but I have no idea how. One insurmountable problem here is market size. In the USA or Europe you can target a niche audience because that niche audience is big enough to give you lots of work and business. You probably won't be playing Wembley or the Dodgers Stadium, but you can get plenty of regular work. In SA that niche is very small - especially for white people performing in English. The Township and the Afrikkans marketplaces have GOT to embrace local artists because nobody else makes the sound they like in the language they speak.

The world is a small place now, so you can work at home and overseas. I saw Margaret's Daughter last night. They've just got back from shows in the UK, Spain and (IIRC) France.

It's always been like this and always will be, and all over the world.

Richard Thompson lives and records in California these days (I tell this story not to try and convert anybody to being a Thompson obsessive but to make a point). Now LA is full of places for musicians to play and studios for them to work in. You have the TV and movie studios nearby - and they also generate a lot of work for musoes. Yet Thompson, in one interview, was telling the readers how lucky he considered himself because he could actually make a living as a musician. He said something along the lines of "some of my favourite guys to play with you won't have heard of, they are fantastic musicians and yet they can't survive working as musicians and have to have a 9-to-5. I keep on pinching myself and expecting to wake up and find I've been dreaming."

Here are just some thoughts on the subject.

Good question. I'd just like to make the point that not all Afrikaans speaking people are stupid and drink Brandewyn.

Not all Afrikaans music is bad and not all English music is good.

Eventually, most of the good artists will make it to the top if they stick to it and market themselves well.

We must make a distinction between entertainment and music. What sometimes get confused for music is just plain entertainment. People like to watch blondes with big boobies and long hair on TV and will buy the CD lter on as it reminds them of the good experience. There is nothing wrong with that and it not right to assume people are stupid because of it.

On the other hand, there are lots of people who do appreciate good music. I do not know what percentage, but a huge number of people can play some instrument and appreciate when somebody else do it well. Sometimes people like to listen to music because they like to play the songs on guitar themselves. Very few people out there can play guitar like a wizard and therefore they simply have no interest in buying the CD. (This can possibly explain why Neil Diamond was more popular than Eric Clapton in the 70's.) Some people can relate to a nice singalong song, simply because they will look silly at the next family braai if they do not sing along with the rest of the family.

Lastly, there is a lot of music being made purely for self satisfaction. Sometimes artists excuse this by calling it avent garde. It however is an art in itself to know what the market wants. Artists who can at least to some extend can understand the business side of their own music business have some chance to succeed.

Man +1000, i agree with u 100% sepheritoh!

Go check this link on youtube......nice prac technique

Bob Dubery wrote: I think that situation may be changing. The indy market overseas is getting busier and there's more money there and a different financial model. I suspect a lot of those artists are deriving their income from live shows and maybe composer's royalties - not from CD sales. In fact it may be the case that the CD is there to promote the live shows - not the other way around.

The financial model is different too. There are lot of smaller labels who will work on the basis that you come to them with finished, recorded product and they distribute it for you and help you find the marketplace. They don't take as much per CD, but then they didn't have to fund the recording in the first place. And because YOU funded the recording, you get more of a say in the artistic decisions.

I think that long term this might be a better way of making money in the long term. Short term you will have less sales, less big tours with massive light shows. But long term you will probably be able to work for more years and more times per year, and build an audience rather than have fashion build it and then remove it for you. You will probably sell less CDs but take a bigger share of each sale, and if you are able to fund your tours yourself you won't end up owing large amounts of money (plus interest) to your manager/label.

? you just put a fucking huge smile on my face.....and every word is so true. It`s spot on

Not all Afrikaans music is bad and not all English music is good.

++1 IMO When the previous bunch of  ***** abused Afrikaans music and culture to promote their oppression, it was fugly
The current bunch of  ****** are doing the same thing to another music and culture that I used to enjoy  > And thats why we don't get into politics here  ?

what about guatemalan music?

It's a simple formula:The majority of the word are monkey-ass stupid and don't listen to music, they would rather watch "the strong ones" beating the crap out of each other at boxing/wrestling/rugby/whatever or watch cars driving around in circles for hours. But they need sweet sounds to help them find a monkey-ass stupid mate so they can reproduce and populate the planet with more of there ilk. TV and Radio are the wise one, it tell them what things are good, what shirt to wear, what beans to eat, and even better, what music is good.

Sad, but very true!

I remember hearing Valiant Swart once remarking, when his latest CD made it to the Afrikaans hit parade, that he's glad to see something else than "Stink Gedrink Volume 53" on the list...

The record labels in this country are partly to blame, and it all comes down to money and what sells. The Afrikaans music industry is a great example of this. How people like DJ Ossewa and the likes can sell so many albums are beyond me. And yes, I am Afrikaans but I still don't get it.

As mentioned, party music sells. I've known quite a few local muso's who completely gave up on the local music scene because of the record companies. Certain producers and companies who I won't mention told them outright, that they will sign them, but only if they add a "beat" to their music.

A few other ones simply had bad management, that failed to steer them into the right direction. Family does not always make good business partners.

I love those adverts on tv.. they rock.. ? . What stumps me is the cd covers showing the guy with the guitar and there is no guitar on the cd... hmmm.

i love the afrikaans guys that go on stage and play a guitar that not even plugged in .... and i have checked for a wireless system as well

Tailon wrote: i love the afrikaans guys that go on stage and play a guitar that not even plugged in .... and i have checked for a wireless system as well

It happens and it prompts a raised eyebrow from me sometimes. But I think we need to be careful in highlighting these things when they involve an Afrikaans musician - that can create the impression that we're saying it ONLY happens to Afrikaans musicians.

What amuses me even more is when you see somebody walking around with this cool guitar just hanging there whilst they cavort and strike poses. Every now and then they'll make a motion with their hands in the general area of the strings.

That's showbiz for you.

I think there are many cases of somebody being given a guitar so that they have something to keep themselves busy when they are not singing backing vocals, shaking their ass, hitting odd percussive things or whatever. They might even be playing more or less in time and in tune but the thing will be turned down.

I suspect that sometimes Springsteen has the guitar turned down - even though he can play. It just looks cooler for him if he can strum something whilst Clarence Clemons or Nils Lofgren takes a solo.

Bob Dubery wrote: I suspect that sometimes Springsteen has the guitar turned down - even though he can play. It just looks cooler for him if he can strum something whilst Clarence Clemons or Nils Lofgren takes a solo.

I read an interview somewhere some time ago where Bruce himself admitted that he "feels uncomfortable" with nothing in his hands and he keeps him guitar with him unstage more to keep his hands busy. His guitarist, Nils Lofgren, is one of the more accomplished guitarist around.

I agree that it is uncalled for to specificaly refer to Afrikaans musicians when tatlking about something - as if it is only Afrikaners that do these things. If anybody wants to bash certain groups of the population, please go join some other forum or start your own facist groups. It is not wanted here.

I think most people are just seeing Afrikaans music in the wrong way. The music is not about musical complexity but about entertainment. Like Robbie Wessel's " Looi loop ". its just a comedic song. That is why Afrikaans people like me could enjoy this kind of music because it talks in our own langauge about stuff whe do like braaing sokkie ect...(if you are Afrikaans you must have done both somewhere in your life....dont deny it.) Im really certain that most Afrikaans artists dont take their "music" to seriously but as something fun and sometimes serious to sing about .

Whe Afrikaans people should really be more proud of our langauge and use it more in our music and not reserve our better music for a English band. Afrikaans and Afrikaners are not going away soon , our population is growing and will keep on growing for a long time. (Even if most of us are in London making Babies with polish chicks and raising them in Polish , Afrikaans and English.)

And to all you Afrikaans haters atleast whe can speak and write more than one language in a lifetime and usually at the age of 8. Not being able to do this could seriously put your mental development at a great disadvantage (even if you suck in your second language like me.)

Guys, no-one is attacking the Afrikaans-speaking population here - just the way they are often portrayed. To be sure, some of it is exaggerated self-satire, but sometimes it's difficult for us second-language types to pick up on it as being such. When this happens, please just set us straight and pity us for our lack of understanding.

From the other side, don't judge Afrikaans music by the popular stuff shown on the TV. Would you like someone else to judge what we English-speaking types like to listen to by what you see played on TV? Also consider that if all the English language music was being sourced locally, we'd also see a higher percentage of utter crap being peddled in our direction.

It's always been the way that it's the more simple, commercial stuff punted on TV and radio - in any language. But there's also always been a strong subculture of alternative music played live ...and at least these days it's just being ignored (like most good music) rather than being banned.

Warning I going to make a sweeping statement based on my personal perspective here. In the Western Cape the Southern suburbs are mostly English speaking while the Northern Suburbs are largely Afrikaans. If you start a rock band here it is accepted that you will spend most of you gigging life trekking to the Northern Suburbs. Afrikaans people like rock music. Based on the club circus in Cape Town English people seems to like trance, techno, acid jazz, drum and base and shit.

So as an engelsman all I can say Rock on you Afrikaners you are keeping the spirit of rock alive in South Africa. (If anyone wants to flame me for this I say bring it on) ?