While i was on the site, and listening to a whole bunch of what ppl came up with, i started to wonder why the hell is the majority of the artists in SA that actually make money so fucking bad at what they do.

So here is a debate to list ur views on why u think the bad ones get all the money and all the best music and talent gets overlooked and then guitarists are forced to play as session players.........

yeah, think people don`t spend as much as they should on marketing and actually getting their music out there. Or maybe i just love guitar so much and the mainstream listeners won`t appreciate the music as much.But seriously doubt that they won`t.

The trade off between what others want to hear and what u want to play....do u wanna make money or make the music u want to.

Bad ones as in those two jokers with the Cowboy hats and the other one singing ' Wys jou muis ' ? I reckon they got their target market [Afrikaans Market] and for some reason those consumers love songs about things they can relate to. Stupid music for stupid people you'd think, but then how stupid can it be when the artist knows what his crowd wants. Not that I'm knocking Afrikaans music , Piet Botha & Jackhammer and those okes are great.

define bad ..... if its bad to you great ... but it's not bad to someone else , they make money because people listen to them goto there shows and buy there cd's . doesn't make them bad , just makes them bad in your eyes.

Well it is history repeating itself again and again.

Why is robbie wessels, theuns, bok and all those guys so popular?
Well ever been to a pub and hear their songs, yes every time!!

"party people" like party music, you now music with lyrics ......"op n bar stoel by n braai....."

Maby if fans demand certain bands that are good, the music industry will change.
But luckely the internet is speeding up the process, yeah!!

It's only a matter of time.
case closed.

Like steve hofmeyer, > that boy band shit and 90% what rotates in the day on MK.....i do think it`s bad....

Manfred Klose wrote:
"party people" like party music, you now music with lyrics ......"op n bar stoel by n braai....."

hahaha that song sounds awesome ?

But yeah, agree with your points completely.

I think the Afrikaans genre is the best example of this. If you think about it, 20 or so years ago most good Afrikaans artists were banned from radio play, as they normally sang about controversial topics. Bles Bridges and Carike Keuzenkamp (spelling) ruled the airwaves as they sang nice family orientated songs, highly approved by the government. So in effect Afrikaans people with good taste in music had to turn to overseas english bands for "good" music.

Nowadays you have a generation of young Afrikaans speaking people, that like anything in their language that they can relate to, so sing about "brandewyn, braai or bokkies" and add a sokkiejol beat to it and you've got a hit. I think this will change slowly, these people have just been deprived of music in their own tongue for so long that they dont really care what it sounds like. There are loads of good afrikaans artists out there, but the mass market demands music about being drunk at a braai and some hot girl (as this is the favourite pass time of most of these people).

Yes the internet will change this, as less popular artists have an easy way to market and distribute their music, so the people who want more than brandewyn en bokkies can actually get it.

Here's hoping this process moves on quickly!!!

Talking about bad bands! Have any of you guys seen DAMN RIGHT, I saw them this weekend at Assembly in Cape Town and what a load of crap.

Anyway yes there is loads of bands in SA that really do have talent but I think most of the bands don’t make enough effort to getting them self out there and we do have the recourses to do it.
Another thing that really pisses me of is the whole image thing going on lately people are spending to much time trying to look good rather that spending that time on making music. I know image sells but what happened to good old fashion music?

CornFlakes wrote:
Another thing that really pisses me of is the whole image thing going on lately people are spending to much time trying to look good rather that spending that time on making music. I know image sells but what happened to good old fashion music?

+1 Cornflakes....

+1 Fritz, it's their 'revolution' so to speak.

This is a very objective matter too - one mans trash is another mans treasure. What you and I like is not necessarily what Joe Soap likes... I probably wouldn't like what you do and you mine.

There are many artists that are guilty of hunting sales and money, and even more so that will release a track or two that are complete sell outs - think Robbie Wessels, Leeu Loop comes to mind. Yet listen to some of his other stuff and there real promise there. The one track has lured the hapless individual into buying a CD that he ordinarily wouldn't. While a don't agree with that tactic, I have to concede that it's a great sales ploy.

i've seen alot of crap bands and for some reason people love 'em the most.... people concentrate way to much on image than on their music... ok like cornflakes said "Image sells" but i mean come,spend 10 extra minutes and write something that doesn't completely suck... another thing that gets annoying is when a band writes all their songs so they sounds so similar it sounds like they've just played the same song 8 times!!! oh and also when every song is about a chick,that gets to me > if my love life was so screwed up,i'd write 1 song,not 8,i wouldn't want people knowing how bad it is?

Isn't this a universal problem? Not only in South Africa.
In the UK you can go to some remote subway in Cornwall and hear Guitarists and Musicians that will blow you away, but all they are interested in is doing their own music, not interested in fame etc?
Steve Morse in his days before Deep Purple couldn't afford to go on tours unless you sponsored him. In the Guitarist magazine (Circa early 90's) they asked him the following question "why don't you ever tour the UK" and he replied that he cant afford it unless invited.
It happens all over the world just listen to all the Radio Stations.

It's a simple formula:
The majority of the word are monkey-ass stupid and don't listen to music, they would rather watch "the strong ones" beating the crap out of each other at boxing/wrestling/rugby/whatever or watch cars driving around in circles for hours. But they need sweet sounds to help them find a monkey-ass stupid mate so they can reproduce and populate the planet with more of there ilk. TV and Radio are the wise one, it tell them what things are good, what shirt to wear, what beans to eat, and even better, what music is good.

Record companies sponsor TV and Radio stations to play only the music they produce. The only music record companies produce are the ones their PR managers sign up. PR managers don't listen to music, they prefer the sound of cash registers and cars riding round in circles for hours. But they need to find the "artists" to sign up. What does a good "artist" look like? Well he/she must look attractive to the monkey-ass stupid people who don't listen to music. The "artist" is made ten times more attractive if he/she has gifts for the PR manager, particular favourites are wads of paper with Tito's autograph. What if the "artist" cant sing or play music? No problem that's the sound engineer and session musicians job.

+1 Rene

Ya, i must agree with cornflakes....this whole image thing sucks, love for the music.The truth is that i think people that play a instrument can appreciate any type of gendre , it may not be your cup of tea but at least u can tell if it is good or not...

Quinus Kok wrote: While i was on the site, and listening to a whole bunch of what ppl came up with, i started to wonder why the hell is the majority of the artists in SA that actually make money so fucking bad at what they do.

So here is a debate to list ur views on why u think the bad ones get all the money and all the best music and talent gets overlooked and then guitarists are forced to play as session players.........

I don't think it's an SA thing. Look at how people in other parts go gaga for West Life, Pussy Cat Dolls etc.

People define "good" and "bad" differently, or, IMO, don't necessarily buy CDs and go to shows FOR THE MUSIC.

You get guys like me (who, of course, have it sussed) who listen to something and ask themselves things like "are these lyrics interesting" and/or "does this guy have chops" and/or "is there something novel going on in all of this". I think for a lot of people the music is the background or soundtrack to something else.

I can't understand why most of the stuff played on the radio is of interest to anybody alive (or dead) - but somebody somewhere must be paying for it.

tokolos wrote: Yeah, it's a hectic industry. I reckon at the end of the day it's all about shifting units; so the broader the target market, the more the moneys and profits. Indie bands allready have a tough time internationally, so imagine all the obstacles SA bands have to face.

I think that situation may be changing. The indy market overseas is getting busier and there's more money there and a different financial model. I suspect a lot of those artists are deriving their income from live shows and maybe composer's royalties - not from CD sales. In fact it may be the case that the CD is there to promote the live shows - not the other way around.

The financial model is different too. There are lot of smaller labels who will work on the basis that you come to them with finished, recorded product and they distribute it for you and help you find the marketplace. They don't take as much per CD, but then they didn't have to fund the recording in the first place. And because YOU funded the recording, you get more of a say in the artistic decisions.

In terms of SA I must confess to being pretty out of touch with the market. There are some acts/artists that I know a little about who are making a living from their performances and recordings - but I have no idea how. One insurmountable problem here is market size. In the USA or Europe you can target a niche audience because that niche audience is big enough to give you lots of work and business. You probably won't be playing Wembley or the Dodgers Stadium, but you can get plenty of regular work. In SA that niche is very small - especially for white people performing in English. The Township and the Afrikkans marketplaces have GOT to embrace local artists because nobody else makes the sound they like in the language they speak.

The world is a small place now, so you can work at home and overseas. I saw Margaret's Daughter last night. They've just got back from shows in the UK, Spain and (IIRC) France.

It's always been like this and always will be, and all over the world.

Richard Thompson lives and records in California these days (I tell this story not to try and convert anybody to being a Thompson obsessive but to make a point). Now LA is full of places for musicians to play and studios for them to work in. You have the TV and movie studios nearby - and they also generate a lot of work for musoes. Yet Thompson, in one interview, was telling the readers how lucky he considered himself because he could actually make a living as a musician. He said something along the lines of "some of my favourite guys to play with you won't have heard of, they are fantastic musicians and yet they can't survive working as musicians and have to have a 9-to-5. I keep on pinching myself and expecting to wake up and find I've been dreaming."

Here are just some thoughts on the subject.

Good question. I'd just like to make the point that not all Afrikaans speaking people are stupid and drink Brandewyn.

Not all Afrikaans music is bad and not all English music is good.

Eventually, most of the good artists will make it to the top if they stick to it and market themselves well.

We must make a distinction between entertainment and music. What sometimes get confused for music is just plain entertainment. People like to watch blondes with big boobies and long hair on TV and will buy the CD lter on as it reminds them of the good experience. There is nothing wrong with that and it not right to assume people are stupid because of it.

On the other hand, there are lots of people who do appreciate good music. I do not know what percentage, but a huge number of people can play some instrument and appreciate when somebody else do it well. Sometimes people like to listen to music because they like to play the songs on guitar themselves. Very few people out there can play guitar like a wizard and therefore they simply have no interest in buying the CD. (This can possibly explain why Neil Diamond was more popular than Eric Clapton in the 70's.) Some people can relate to a nice singalong song, simply because they will look silly at the next family braai if they do not sing along with the rest of the family.

Lastly, there is a lot of music being made purely for self satisfaction. Sometimes artists excuse this by calling it avent garde. It however is an art in itself to know what the market wants. Artists who can at least to some extend can understand the business side of their own music business have some chance to succeed.