Any ideas on breaking away from the box?

Eujean

I've been playing guitar for about 2 or so years now..

I struggle improvising because every time I try, I basically fall back into the minor pentatonic boxes. I know all 5 shapes, and understand how they work, but I can't seem to find something that works ☹

For example, I would start with something, then almost after about 6 or so notes run out of ideas where to go next. Then I find myself just jumping back and forth between the same 2 strings playing the same notes. This frustrates me, because I know the notes of the scale, and how they link up, but don't know how to phrase or use them to make it sound like something that doesn't just sound like ascending or descending a scale. Any ideas on how or what I should practice more?

TokyoP0P

I never got into practicing scales and theory because its boring as hell but I used to learn the solos/lead work of some of my favourite bands and in doing so gained a better understanding of how things worked and a practical sense of why. Maybe go listen to some stuff and find something that you aspire to play like and learn it, then play it over and over and over. It might help to learn the rhythm section as well so that you see what notes and phrases worked over what chord changes and how it all fits together.

Also you should remember that although you might find yourself slightly trapped in the same one or two boxes, deviating from it usually just takes you to the same notes only in a different octave and on a different area on the fretboard. The pentatonic scales work for a reason. They sound great, almost always, and every other note is kind of just a bridge. Then you can add your little outside ghost notes that don't really belong, for a bluesy/jazzy sound. I'm not saying you should continue to stick to those boxes; no you should definitely work on getting more comfortable with branching out, but know that its all just a game of tetris, slotting licks onto each other to get to the notes that really matter. Those notes are the ones you're already using now.

Improvisation is rarely going to sound totally unique, even among the pros. People just getting better at resiting and rearranging what they already know. If you watch someone insane like Paul Gilbert improvising over a riff, hes really just playing an amalgamation of licks hes already learned and developed over the years, and you'll find that most of them fit into a pentatonic scale. All the other shreddy, alternative picking stuff is just him adding the in-betweeners and climbing his way back up to the really tasty stuff.

So some advice would be to learn some cool licks, phrases, patterns, etc, and also just come up with your own. Try writing stuff without a backing track. Just try to come up with rad stuff that sounds interesting all on its own, then repeat the hell out of it until its just a natural part of your playing. I have some licks that I came up with years ago and to this day I find myself throwing it into almost every solo I write. I rework it slightly every time, but its still essentially the same idea and maybe nobody will ever notice, but its there because its one of my tools in my toolbox and it works. You'll find that every guitarist has there trademark thing they do. Going back to Paul Gilbert again, I know what his is because its in every single thing he writes and it rarely changes.

And lastly, nobody will ever remember that guy who was so gosh darn good at improvising. Unless its some smokey jazz lounge type of gig... I don't know. Its the great writers who are memorable and writing takes time and effort. Painters don't sell their napkin doodles. But with that said, practicing your improvisation can only help, just don't get too frustrated with yourself.

Ooh, one last thing!!!! Familiarize yourself with arpeggio shapes and connecting them. Gypsy jazz solos are almost entirely just arpeggios fitting into each chord change, and gypsy jazz solos are awesome.

Malkav

This is basically something we could all talk about for months on end, but at the end of the day the best way is to just train your ears really well. Once you stop thinking in terms of scales and start thinking in terms of intervals that'll pretty much tear it wide open for you.

Also check this video out, killer practice technique to help build awareness for changes, and though these examples are non diatonic you can basically apply the same system over a static key and it's modal changes.

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briang-telkomsa-net

To add to the good advice from Tokyo
I have read and seen clips, and only starting to appreciate their wisdom, of being able to play a hook, solo, melody with only 6 (or whatever limited number of notes) but make sure that you sound them as well and as cleanly as possible.

Some additional suggestions to consider;
Play a melody one way, then reverse the notes, and their lengths, in the next phrase
Play "question and answer" phrases just like all the blues guys say you should
Use spaces - yes music consists of sounds and silences
Use sparse phrasing in first phrase and then "fill" that space with something the next time around
Start the next phrase slightly later or earlier than the first phrase i.e. not on the "one" beat maybe on the "and" or even the "2 and" (you hear this often)
When you bend strings make sure that you are getting to the note intended
Work on vibrato technique
As Tokyo said learn arpeggios as they help with hitting chord tones that may be "out of the box" ( added bonus is you learn how chords are constructed)

If you're inclined to, consider learning major and minor scales perhaps, but it sounds like you want to create melodies with what you have, so then I would second the advice of listening, really listening, to others and coming up with your own riffs based on this is the way to go

You will be amazed at what you can do with just a few notes - even in a box!

NorioDS

Another trick to add to your toolbox is to play up and down a single string. Joe Satriani teaches this and it really has helped me moved out of some of my "bad habits" in terms of box playing.

Awesome video, Chad. I really loved how that sounded. I remember the first time I saw/heard something like this it was in a video from Marty Friedman. It's such a powerful technique and really opens things up.

Now if only I'd practise it ?

G-Man

I was stuck in a big rut myself until just recently with fixed patterns when I took the plunge and decided to focus on some new techniques in my playing. So I've been grinding away in the tool shed with appregio and legato exercises for a good few months and it has unlocked that missing link in my repitoir, variety.

Depending on where I land with any of my 4 fingers I have what seems like at least 4 or 5 more options and multiple directions to choose from. I may not have any theoretical musical knowledge but it has reignited my desire to become a decent guitar player and it's lots of fun.

Now I'm not talking about speed or shred because that will take a long time for me to get any where with, but rather the new note choices that i had no idea were right there , kind of like a bridge for me to stumble across instead of having to stop and walk the long way around.

Eujean

Thanks for all the advice so far guys! Really helpful stuff! That video is awesome, can't wait to get that going. Briang, I know the major scale quite well as well, can play it fluently up and down as well quite fast, but then again I'm still stuck. Definitely going to look at a few arpegios.

bloukie

Great thread guys - thank you.

Don't underestimate that box, Eurjean. The best solos build pressure and momentum and then release that pressure with a target note. Repeating patterns of three notes within a box will do that for you and when released will always sound great.

Also, maybe consider thinking rhythmically - the way a drummer "stumbles" through a drum fill while maintaining the tempo.

Long live the box!

NorioDS

This video by Pete Thorn offers a cool method to break out of the box without REALLY learning anything new.

(IE: This is a shortcut.)

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domhatch

you wanna get outta the box? sure, go ahead. i think the guys have given you more than enough great ways to beat those 'in the box' blues. but there's another way to look at the problem, you know.

stay in the box.

just get better at being there.

worked for bb king. of course, i'm oversimplifying what a great blues guitarist did. but once you've explored being outta the box, don't forget that staying in the box, with great phrasing and expression, is what got a whole bunch of exceptional bluesmen through.
dh|

studmissile

domhatch wrote: worked for bb king. of course, i'm oversimplifying what a great blues guitarist did. but once you've explored being outta the box, don't forget that staying in the box, with great phrasing and expression, is what got a whole bunch of exceptional bluesmen through.
dh|

Good point!

singemonkey

domhatch wrote: you wanna get outta the box? sure, go ahead. i think the guys have given you more than enough great ways to beat those 'in the box' blues. but there's another way to look at the problem, you know.

stay in the box.

just get better at being there.

worked for bb king. of course, i'm oversimplifying what a great blues guitarist did. but once you've explored being outta the box, don't forget that staying in the box, with great phrasing and expression, is what got a whole bunch of exceptional bluesmen through.
dh|

I sort of agree with this. You don't need to leave the boxes for it's own sake. I was learning some Freddie King licks this week, and was a bit amazed to discover that 95% of what he does is in two pentatonic minor boxes - 1 and 2. Very occasionally, and mostly with endings, he works the pentatonic major position 1. And yet... he sounds freakin' awesome.

But even there, it's like Chad is saying - he's not thinking in terms of the box as a series of patterns. It's simply the place in which he works intervals. He's got three octaves to play with right there. There's no particular *need* to rush all over the fretboard. The trick is learning to play the notes that you want to play, rather than letting your fingers decide for you.

NorioDS

singemonkey wrote:The trick is learning to play the notes that you want to play, rather than letting your fingers decide for you.

^^ I like this so much.

And it reminds me of something Joe Satriani teaches. He was taught by some jazz genius to "scat sing" along with things.

So this would allow him to come up with melodies and solos completely independently of the guitar.

Then he'd take what he came up with and play it on a guitar. (Something like that. Been a while since I read that.)

That's something I found works well. Like I'll sing a melody or solo over something and enjoy it but when I'm noodling, I come up empty or just end up repeating the same old tired phrases.

So if you were to record yourself singing a melody or "lead" over something and then try recreate that on the guitar, you might find that doing that would automatically help you break out of the box playing.

I've only done this a little. It's difficult but it feels so much more musical.

NorioDS

One caveat of this method: You might need to remind yourself to keep it simple. Sometimes I find my mouth writing riff-cheques that my fingers can't cash ?

TokyoP0P

Norio wrote:
singemonkey wrote:The trick is learning to play the notes that you want to play, rather than letting your fingers decide for you.
^^ I like this so much.

And it reminds me of something Joe Satriani teaches. He was taught by some jazz genius to "scat sing" along with things.

So this would allow him to come up with melodies and solos completely independently of the guitar.

Then he'd take what he came up with and play it on a guitar. (Something like that. Been a while since I read that.)

That's something I found works well. Like I'll sing a melody or solo over something and enjoy it but when I'm noodling, I come up empty or just end up repeating the same old tired phrases.

So if you were to record yourself singing a melody or "lead" over something and then try recreate that on the guitar, you might find that doing that would automatically help you break out of the box playing.

I've only done this a little. It's difficult but it feels so much more musical.

Yeah and I remember reading an interview with Joe on one of his more recent albums, he said something about how they came up with most of the stuff as vocals melodies first, then transcribed it all onto the guitar. Even went as far as recording it as vocals at first.

ezietsman

Yeah I agree, breaking out of the box doesn't necessarily mean stop playing the 6 notes in the blues scale (for most of us anyway). Thinking in terms of a key and an associated scale only is what leads to this 'stuck in the box' thing. However, I detect a sense of "I want to get better without learning anything new" in this thread. THAT won't help in the long run either. It IS useful in the sense that you could learn how to make something interesting using fewer notes. Then the trick is phrasing, rhythmic devices and so on.

I think approaching these issues from a combination of various viewpoints i.t.o. key scales / chord scales / arpeggios / intervals etc. will help one 'break out of the box' much faster faster than otherwise.

But I understand, lazy fvkrs, all of us. Haha.

V8

ez wrote: However, I detect a sense of "I want to get better without learning anything new" in this thread. THAT won't help in the long run either.

But I understand, lazy fvkrs, all of us. Haha.

errr...yes...ummm...<guilty as charged> ?

Eujean

V8 wrote:
ez wrote: However, I detect a sense of "I want to get better without learning anything new" in this thread. THAT won't help in the long run either.

But I understand, lazy fvkrs, all of us. Haha.
errr...yes...ummm...<guilty as charged> ?

Haha, who doesn't at least attempt to do ridiculous arpeggio sweeps across the fretboard at 600 BPM missing about 99% of the notes?? ?

I understand that the box isn't a bad thing, I just don't know what to do with it. I understand intervals and where they come from, but how do you practice to use them effectively? Do you look at a mirror while playing and scream at the top of your lungs: "THIS IS THE FLAT 3RD" just after playing the note.

I won't mind putting in the hours to learn all the combinations of what works with what, I just don't know how.
Thanks for all the amazing advice so far guys. Much appreciated

NorioDS

This is an awesome thread. Great to see us talking about playing and not just abusing our wallets ?

As for how to practise intervals, I think the video Adam posted is a brilliant way to do this.

So here's what I would do:

1. Get the ChordBot app for your phone. It's free (I've paid for the premium version - WORTH IT).

2. Make a simple 2-chord tune. Make it loop endlessly.

3. Make a diagram of a single position on your fretboard. Copy it so you have 2 copies.

4. Mark down the notes for each of your 2 chords.

5. Plug your phone into the AUX of your amp, so you can hear the backing track nice and loud.

6. Watch the video again.

7. Play, and see how each interval "interacts" with the chord beneath it.

Keep doing that for a while and then maybe add a chord after a few days. Till eventually you have a whole progression going (12-Bar Blues maybe).

Also, on your diagram, it would be wise to not just mark the actual note positions and note names, but the interval names as well.

So for example, a single dot might have the letter "A" in it or next to it, along with it's interval number, like "b3" (flat-third) or whatever.

So yeah, that's how I'd practise it. This gives you an easy way forward and ChordBot is fun and really flexible. You can make your backing track as simple or complicated as you like.

domhatch

Norio wrote: This is an awesome thread. Great to see us talking about playing and not just abusing our wallets ?

As for how to practise intervals, I think the video Adam posted is a brilliant way to do this.

So here's what I would do:

1. Get the ChordBot app for your phone. It's free (I've paid for the premium version - WORTH IT).

2. Make a simple 2-chord tune. Make it loop endlessly.

3. Make a diagram of a single position on your fretboard. Copy it so you have 2 copies.

4. Mark down the notes for each of your 2 chords.

5. Plug your phone into the AUX of your amp, so you can hear the backing track nice and loud.

6. Watch the video again.

7. Play, and see how each interval "interacts" with the chord beneath it.

Keep doing that for a while and then maybe add a chord after a few days. Till eventually you have a whole progression going (12-Bar Blues maybe).

Also, on your diagram, it would be wise to not just mark the actual note positions and note names, but the interval names as well.

So for example, a single dot might have the letter "A" in it or next to it, along with it's interval number, like "b3" (flat-third) or whatever.

So yeah, that's how I'd practise it. This gives you an easy way forward and ChordBot is fun and really flexible. You can make your backing track as simple or complicated as you like.

chordbot... hmm...