they mention somewhere in the thread that it was removedHmmm... what happened to that big ass Gibson logo that was glued to the top?
EDIT: dont know how true that is ?
Interesting read: LEs Paul burst 1960 found in South Africa
EDIT: dont know how true that is ?
So Mark, any chance of giving us the skinny on what actually happened here? I remember reading that thread at the time and wondering what had happened. To be honest, I'm glad that guitar hasn't left our shores, and I don't know what your intentions are with it, but I hope it stays here. I sleep better at night knowing there is a 1960 Burst less than 5km from me! ?Vintage Guitar wrote:That's not what I call her.. ?nick wrote: Ahh the infamous 'disgrace' burst ?
Also, if you come across any old Marshall kit like old cabs, heads etc that aren't in a condition you're interested in, please let me know. I had quite a bit of fun restoring an old 4x12 that another forumer got from you, and that I ended up with in a trade.
I'm just up the road from you, in Hillcrest.
The logo came off easily, I slid a business card under the logo and in a matter of minutes it popped right off.Manfred Klose wrote:they mention somewhere in the thread that it was removedHmmm... what happened to that big ass Gibson logo that was glued to the top?
EDIT: dont know how true that is ?
The original owner used the logo off his Gibson GA40 amp. ?
i dont know much about the value of vintage gibsons, but can someone please clarify why this guitar is worth so much ?
Well, I think it is also a good case that the Guitar stayed here in South Africa and not to a US dealer...shaunf wrote:So Mark, any chance of giving us the skinny on what actually happened here? I remember reading that thread at the time and wondering what had happened. To be honest, I'm glad that guitar hasn't left our shores, and I don't know what your intentions are with it, but I hope it stays here. I sleep better at night knowing there is a 1960 Burst less than 5km from me! ?Vintage Guitar wrote:That's not what I call her.. ?nick wrote: Ahh the infamous 'disgrace' burst ?
Also, if you come across any old Marshall kit like old cabs, heads etc that aren't in a condition you're interested in, please let me know. I had quite a bit of fun restoring an old 4x12 that another forumer got from you, and that I ended up with in a trade.
I'm just up the road from you, in Hillcrest.
I also wonder, if the US guy was thinking if those guys in Africa are stupid....
You give a south african guy (who happens to be very knowledgeable about the issue) 5k to pick up one of the most sought after guitars for a real bargain price. Hold on to the guitar and bring it to the US and give it to the US guy who will probably sell the guitar asap for double or triple money....
I only wonder what would have happened if Graceland guitars had done this and
- the guitar would have been stolen afterwards
- or was already stolen before... you know what have happened to me and the Jazz bass
- was not as original and worth that money
- was damaged during transport
- was a complete scam
- etcetera
The US buyer is just kicking himself for not being more pragmatic and just travelled to South Africa
It's rarity value. Gibson only made 1700 LP standards before canning the LP range in 1961. Of those, not all were sunbursts. Of those that are sunbursts, not all have attractive figuring in the maple cap.Manfred Klose wrote: i dont know much about the value of vintage gibsons, but can someone please clarify why this guitar is worth so much ?
And, of course, not all of those 1700 have survived (or at least they haven't all been found). So they have a non-trivial rarity value.
Well I don't know why it should be a good thing, and realistically it's going to end up overseas at some point. The market is too small here, and you won't get full value for such an instrument. SA is a good place for BUYING these instruments, but not for selling them. To realise the full value of that guitar it will have to be sold overseas.kapepper wrote: Well, I think it is also a good case that the Guitar stayed here in South Africa and not to a US dealer...
There are at least three 1960 LP standards in SA right now. So you can shop around ?
Very interesting story.
Loved this one:
Loved this one:
Also location is everything. You ever been to S.Africa? With 45k in CASH??? (in a country/city/culture you effectively know nothing about.) Seriously? I'm not interested in dying over a guitar. Hiring the job out was smart. I just picked the wrong guy.
Hey Shaun, I got your number. We should meet up and I will give you the lowdown and talk vintage gear.shaunf wrote:So Mark, any chance of giving us the skinny on what actually happened here? I remember reading that thread at the time and wondering what had happened. To be honest, I'm glad that guitar hasn't left our shores, and I don't know what your intentions are with it, but I hope it stays here. I sleep better at night knowing there is a 1960 Burst less than 5km from me! ?Vintage Guitar wrote:That's not what I call her.. ?nick wrote: Ahh the infamous 'disgrace' burst ?
Also, if you come across any old Marshall kit like old cabs, heads etc that aren't in a condition you're interested in, please let me know. I had quite a bit of fun restoring an old 4x12 that another forumer got from you, and that I ended up with in a trade.
I'm just up the road from you, in Hillcrest.
Would love that! Hope to hear from you soon!Vintage Guitar wrote:Hey Shaun, I got your number. We should meet up and I will give you the lowdown and talk vintage gear.shaunf wrote:So Mark, any chance of giving us the skinny on what actually happened here? I remember reading that thread at the time and wondering what had happened. To be honest, I'm glad that guitar hasn't left our shores, and I don't know what your intentions are with it, but I hope it stays here. I sleep better at night knowing there is a 1960 Burst less than 5km from me! ?Vintage Guitar wrote:That's not what I call her.. ?nick wrote: Ahh the infamous 'disgrace' burst ?
Also, if you come across any old Marshall kit like old cabs, heads etc that aren't in a condition you're interested in, please let me know. I had quite a bit of fun restoring an old 4x12 that another forumer got from you, and that I ended up with in a trade.
I'm just up the road from you, in Hillcrest.
I was offered $3k. Nobody on the lespaulforum has mentioned that the guy helping his buddy out was trying to take $2k for himself.kapepper wrote:
Well, I think it is also a good case that the Guitar stayed here in South Africa and not to a US dealer...
I also wonder, if the US guy was thinking if those guys in Africa are stupid....
You give a south african guy (who happens to be very knowledgeable about the issue) 5k to pick up one of the most sought after guitars for a real bargain price. Hold on to the guitar and bring it to the US and give it to the US guy who will probably sell the guitar asap for double or triple money....
I only wonder what would have happened if Graceland guitars had done this and
- the guitar would have been stolen afterwards
- or was already stolen before... you know what have happened to me and the Jazz bass
- was not as original and worth that money
- was damaged during transport
- was a complete scam
- etcetera
The US buyer is just kicking himself for not being more pragmatic and just travelled to South Africa
I will go anywhere in the world for a chance to buy another one. ?makepeace wrote: Very interesting story.
Loved this one:
Also location is everything. You ever been to S.Africa? With 45k in CASH??? (in a country/city/culture you effectively know nothing about.) Seriously? I'm not interested in dying over a guitar. Hiring the job out was smart. I just picked the wrong guy.
When a burst comes up for air you have to move quickly.
Of course not. You probably call her "mine". ?Vintage Guitar wrote: That's not what I call her.. ?
As to the whole affair, I must admit in a similar position, I might well be tempted to do the same.
...but then again, I'm not a vintage guitar dealer with a rep to protect.
I only wonder how you explain that to your wife ?Vintage Guitar wrote:I will go anywhere in the world for a chance to buy another one. ?makepeace wrote: Very interesting story.
Loved this one:
Also location is everything. You ever been to S.Africa? With 45k in CASH??? (in a country/city/culture you effectively know nothing about.) Seriously? I'm not interested in dying over a guitar. Hiring the job out was smart. I just picked the wrong guy.
When a burst comes up for air you have to move quickly.
or maybe you just said that you bought a very cheap les paul epiphone in Joburg ?
Must confess; and I don't really care, but none of the posts from all three sides in that open debate is 100% objective. And trying to discern the truth or who was right or wrong with all of that nonsense from the peanut gallery jumping at you all the time is near impossible.
All I can say is that it doesn't matter if its an irreplaceable vintage Gibson or a fizz-pop, morals and integrity should not be compromised. Whoever 'the bad guy' is in that transaction must (even if its really deep down) feel pretty ashamed of himself, and I can only hope that he realizes that its because of people like him that the world is such a stuffed up place most of the time.
All I can say is that it doesn't matter if its an irreplaceable vintage Gibson or a fizz-pop, morals and integrity should not be compromised. Whoever 'the bad guy' is in that transaction must (even if its really deep down) feel pretty ashamed of himself, and I can only hope that he realizes that its because of people like him that the world is such a stuffed up place most of the time.
Whoa, amazing thread, just read most of it ??? (skipped a couple of the middle pages that were off topic)
Just some choice quotes off their forum.
I think the whole thing is daft, mainly just cause I'm not nostalgic so the whole rarity thing wouldn't influence my interest in the guitar and the fact that it's old is actually a huge negative in my mind. Why do people seem to go so bonkers over guitars that were made to far lower tolerances than those of today? (Rhetorical)
It's great that there are so many people who are willing to spend small fortunes on guitars that don't really have any quantifiable advantage over modern guitars, I find it quite annoying that there's an entire guitar playing culture that has developed around the idea that somehow these relic instruments are of a higher tier than the things you can get today...
TL;DR: I still think the whole vintage thing is stupid, also as is generally my experience these old school "tone afficionados" generally can't play well enough to warrant their opinions, you do get the exception to the norm but often they don't have the skills to back their mouths IMO ?
^ The guy who posted this is an idiot, as if the over inflated value of this thing is somehow going to lessen because someone got screwed over...Also the hinting that they have some sort of secret society thing going on is pretentious and super lame...I hope the guy enjoys THAT burst, because this is a pretty damn small community, and word gets around......
"emotional" I almost fell off my chair laughing at that.This is exactly what happens when you try to cut too many $ corners in buying a "thing" as rare, as distant, and as "emotional" as a Burst
That they do...U guys sound like a bunch of women in a sewing circle...
I think the whole thing is daft, mainly just cause I'm not nostalgic so the whole rarity thing wouldn't influence my interest in the guitar and the fact that it's old is actually a huge negative in my mind. Why do people seem to go so bonkers over guitars that were made to far lower tolerances than those of today? (Rhetorical)
It's great that there are so many people who are willing to spend small fortunes on guitars that don't really have any quantifiable advantage over modern guitars, I find it quite annoying that there's an entire guitar playing culture that has developed around the idea that somehow these relic instruments are of a higher tier than the things you can get today...
TL;DR: I still think the whole vintage thing is stupid, also as is generally my experience these old school "tone afficionados" generally can't play well enough to warrant their opinions, you do get the exception to the norm but often they don't have the skills to back their mouths IMO ?
To be honest I think you miss the point Chad....the out-burst (excuse the pun) is around the alleged "lack of honesty and integrity" of the appointed "agent" from their perspective. The article, or value of such, has nothing to do with the debate.Chad Adam Browne wrote: Just some choice quotes off their forum.
^ The guy who posted this is an idiot, as if the over inflated value of this thing is somehow going to lessen because someone got screwed over...Also the hinting that they have some sort of secret society thing going on is pretentious and super lame...I hope the guy enjoys THAT burst, because this is a pretty damn small community, and word gets around......
"emotional" I almost fell off my chair laughing at that.This is exactly what happens when you try to cut too many $ corners in buying a "thing" as rare, as distant, and as "emotional" as a Burst
That they do...U guys sound like a bunch of women in a sewing circle...
I think the whole thing is daft, mainly just cause I'm not nostalgic so the whole rarity thing wouldn't influence my interest in the guitar and the fact that it's old is actually a huge negative in my mind. Why do people seem to go so bonkers over guitars that were made to far lower tolerances than those of today? (Rhetorical)
It's great that there are so many people who are willing to spend small fortunes on guitars that don't really have any quantifiable advantage over modern guitars, I find it quite annoying that there's an entire guitar playing culture that has developed around the idea that somehow these relic instruments are of a higher tier than the things you can get today...
TL;DR: I still think the whole vintage thing is stupid, also as is generally my experience these old school "tone afficionados" generally can't play well enough to warrant their opinions, you do get the exception to the norm but often they don't have the skills to back their mouths IMO ?
Mark Grace responded above with his account of the events and the US guy claims that Grace is misrepresenting the actual facts.
Sad thing is that Mark Grace has now been put in the spotlight. The mLP forum is a high profile forum in which most of LP collectors world-wide is actively involved in. And these have taken note of this no doubt
Think Chad's stirring the kettle of fish so to speak.
But anyway, I don't know if anyone said they were better. They play nicely and they have an inexplicable feeling when you pick them up. Better or higher tiered is a stupid thing because ultimately if two guitars the same, an opinion is the only thing that can make one "better" than the other.
But anyway, I don't know if anyone said they were better. They play nicely and they have an inexplicable feeling when you pick them up. Better or higher tiered is a stupid thing because ultimately if two guitars the same, an opinion is the only thing that can make one "better" than the other.
whoa...............totally awesome thread.........
The thing is, you just KNOW that the guy who wanted to buy it shot out a lowball offer and was thinking at the end of the day he's gonna make a freaking fortune when he sells it on.
The thing is, you just KNOW that the guy who wanted to buy it shot out a lowball offer and was thinking at the end of the day he's gonna make a freaking fortune when he sells it on.