Hey FG

I have two books by Jodi Fisher

Beginning Jazz Guitar
Intermediate Jazz Guitar

Haven't touched them yet, maybe I should have a bash as well.

maybe you can blog your process, and give us other lazier guitarists some inspiration ?

jazz is really not difficult, but requires you to have a "sense of jazz" or natural feel for it ....... when i was studying jazz double bass back in 80's i was told ...."one can't teach jazz" "one can only teach the theory involved the rest is up to the student "......

and yes if you can play well enough at the moment( as in understands chord formula's and scales and keys ect...the basic theory) then 6 months is not a bad time frame to get the basics down......BUT after that it takes years and years to find your own "voice" cos in jazz we all play basically the same songs they been doing since 20's /30's onwards (the standards) ........ but the fun is every jazz artist will play the same song in their own way ........ just listen to miles davis's version of "so what " and ronny jordans version same song but 2 different approach's and just cos your version is different it does not make it wrong .....thats what i love about jazz that i can interpret and reharmonise a song any way i like ....and it's appreciated...... noone expects the original version .in fact in jazz if you copy other artists too closely you get slated not praised for it ......

so yeah just go for it ......... but i do warn you jazz is never ending ...so 6 months is the beginning ...cos even old jazz pro's who have played for 40 yrs are still learning and finding new ways to be creative in their style of jazz.......

good luck keep me posted to how you doing

Nice topic FG. I reckon it's possible provided

1. You can learn & understand the theory fairly quickly.
2. You can apply said theory without thinking about it.
3. You can learn your standards and build a repetoire.

But there's another part of me that's going "You can't really learn jazz - you can only learn concepts and apply them, hopefully what comes out is jazz".

A few things that might be of interest:

1. Get a fakebook and like you said, learn all the standards.
2. Start listening to as much of it as possible to soak it in - and don't just stick to guitar oriented jazz.
3. Get yourself Joe Pass' Chord book, Kenny Burrell and Al DiMeola also have books out as well but i forget the names.
4. Jazz history 2 DVD set is important viewing to know where it comes from.

I see that you're looking at swing jazz specifically - you could also add in some of musicals like High Society, The Benny Goodman Story, The Glen Miller Story, Guys & Dolls, Till the clouds roll by, On the town, Porgy & Bess, Round midnight, Birth of the blues, The Cole Porter box set, Duke Ellington's sophisticated ladies, Fabulous Dorseys, New Orleans, Anchors Aweigh, Young man with a horn, Can-can, From here to eternity.

Hope this helps man. I'm still learning.
Good luck

I heard a story once at UCT that the only way to really sink your teeth into jazz is to start by eating/drinking/sleeping/transcribing Miles Davis' Kind of Blue... Apparently only once you've achieved that monumental task, are you on your way... lol! ???

MoreCowBell wrote: I heard a story once at UCT that the only way to really sink your teeth into jazz is to start by eating/drinking/sleeping/transcribing Miles Davis' Kind of Blue... Apparently only once you've achieved that monumental task, are you on your way... lol! ???

Might have been interesting if that was true.
Or maybe you only become a fusion guitar player after you transcribe the Brecker Brothers' Some Skunk Funk solos ?

Squonk wrote: I have two books by Jodi Fisher

Beginning Jazz Guitar
Intermediate Jazz Guitar

Haven't touched them yet, maybe I should have a bash as well.

maybe you can blog your process, and give us other lazier guitarists some inspiration ?

Yes. They very good. Ive gone through the beginner one already, very good. And the intermediate looks so 'all encompassing'. I highly recommend them.

Interesting idea about the blog. It might be a good initiative for me to not back down, and stick with the program. I can do like a weekely update. The only problem, is that I dont know how I would benchmarch myself before and after. Atleast like a diet, you can see if you losing, but how can I tell if I am getting better at Jazz?

Keira WitherKay wrote: jazz is really not difficult, but requires you to have a "sense of jazz" or natural feel for it ....... when i was studying jazz double bass back in 80's i was told ...."one can't teach jazz" "one can only teach the theory involved the rest is up to the student "......

and yes if you can play well enough at the moment( as in understands chord formula's and scales and keys ect...the basic theory) then 6 months is not a bad time frame to get the basics down......BUT after that it takes years and years to find your own "voice" cos in jazz we all play basically the same songs they been doing since 20's /30's onwards (the standards)[...]

so yeah just go for it ......... but i do warn you jazz is never ending ...so 6 months is the beginning ...cos even old jazz pro's who have played for 40 yrs are still learning and finding new ways to be creative in their style of jazz.......

good luck keep me posted to how you doing

Thanks Keira. I totally agree with you. I am by no means expecting to be a Joe Pass or Barney Kessel, but I definitely want to have the adequacy to play in jazz environments, and big bands etc. I want this project to catapult me into the level of playing with jazz musicians, if not to be like them (as they are all ahead in years) but definitely just to play with them and know how to hold my ground.

Arjun Menon wrote: Nice topic FG. I reckon it's possible provided

1. You can learn & understand the theory fairly quickly.
2. You can apply said theory without thinking about it.
3. You can learn your standards and build a repetoire.

But there's another part of me that's going "You can't really learn jazz - you can only learn concepts and apply them, hopefully what comes out is jazz".

A few things that might be of interest:

1. Get a fakebook and like you said, learn all the standards.
2. Start listening to as much of it as possible to soak it in - and don't just stick to guitar oriented jazz.
3. Get yourself Joe Pass' Chord book, Kenny Burrell and Al DiMeola also have books out as well but i forget the names.
4. Jazz history 2 DVD set is important viewing to know where it comes from.

I see that you're looking at swing jazz specifically - you could also add in some of musicals like High Society, The Benny Goodman Story, The Glen Miller Story, Guys & Dolls, Till the clouds roll by, On the town, Porgy & Bess, Round midnight, Birth of the blues, The Cole Porter box set, Duke Ellington's sophisticated ladies, Fabulous Dorseys, New Orleans, Anchors Aweigh, Young man with a horn, Can-can, From here to eternity.

Hope this helps man. I'm still learning.
Good luck

Yes. Thanks Arjun. With regards to your points.
1) I think im pretty good at learning quickly. Provided its well explained
2) This is probably my biggest weakness. Especially with improv, it requires such quick thinking, and thats what i need to improve upon
3) Yea, can do that ?

And the next interests:
1) I have a couple of real/fake books actually
2) I am indeed soaking in the ambience of all jazz. and not only guitarists too.
3) I have Joe Pass ones, I will look for Al DiMeola too thanks
4) I will look for this

I dont want to limit myself to swing jazz. But of course most standards in big band are swing.

But thanks for all comments thus far. The more I think about it the more I get excited about this project.

One thing Im trying to sort out, is how will I practice? For example do I devote lets say an hour a day to learning one new scale mode, such as the super locrian, or do I spend that hour learning 3 new modes, which I will go over again the next day and the day after etc. There is so much I need to learn with jazz, so should it be something like, 1 hour of theory, 3 hours of practicing said theory with an hour for learning standards? What are the best ways to practice and learn things?

6 months...... If you are talking being an accomplished jazzer with the ability to improvise over anything I am going to say no way. Not to be negative, not to say don't go for it..... I am just being realistic.

I also do not know your ability. How well do you read and how is your jazz chord vocabulary right now?

I figure that with 6 months of intense study you may end up being able to fake your way through some jazz tunes but if you are going from minimal jazz knowledge now ......you will not be able to consider yourself a jazz player in 6 months and nor will any serious jazz musician consider you a jazz musician. That does not mean they will not take you under their wing and help you along.......experienced musicians tend to want to help dedicated up and comers......they see themselves in them.

A great attitude is a must though.

Somebody mentioned Kind Of Blue as if it were a benchmark or something. The album Kind Of Blue is very modal. The songs are either 12 bars or very modal, where one or two scales cover it.....so this is dead easy to solo over or take way outside....... there are hardly any changes to worry about.

By contrast.... tune's like Donna Lee, My Foolish Heart, 'Round Midnite, Molten Glass, On Green Dolphin St etc etc ad infinitum.........thousands of songs like them with complex chord changes and rhythmic structures.......what are you going to do when you sit in with a band and they call a difficult song you don't know? The way I think, is that if you cannot blow a cool solo over any changes in any song in any key at a variety of tempo's.......you are not a jazzman. You might be able to play in the jazz style on a song or three....... but you are not a jazzman. Oh and reading......... serious jazz players expect you to read flyshit.

Like I said, I am not being a bummer....I just will never be one to want to blow smoke up your ass. I like your attitude and I think you should go for it because it will make you a way better player and besides, you may prove me totally wrong.

Consider this though..... a better approach perhaps. Why not concentrate on being a super jazz rhythm player in 6 months? This will include being able to read any chord chart and being able to play any jazz chord correctly, not only the standard voicing's everyone learns but having a nice handle on some hip voicing's. You should also be able to transpose on the fly. Maybe the big band plays Stella By Starlight in the key it was written but a singer sits in and asks if you can play it in a different key to what your charts are written in. Can you do that as you go? I watched the musicians in Blood, Sweat and Tears do that at a rehearsal-blew me away.

You should also learn all the substitution rules and be able to apply them on the fly, know all the key signatures by heart and be able to comp in any style authentically....... bebop, Latin, straight ahead........ in any time signature.

Here's what......... 3-4 months solid study you can do it as a rhythm guitarist.....get all the basic jazz grips down and be able to hold down the rhythm as you read charts.

Then.....if you can convince the big band to let you sit in on rhythm, you get your foot in the door. Pull off a few rehearsals and show them you are fun to work with and that you are super dedicated and genuinely happy to be where you are at and that you apply what they teach you.........this lays the groundwork for you working your way up. Then as you go along and you have learned to solo over a song or two you can ask to blow a solo at a rehearsal....if you pull it off you likely will be doing it at the next gig.

And so you move forward. Oh, and if they have a guitarist...... ask if you can sit in for no pay and do that as often as you can. Gig's, rehearsal's ....see if they will let you play as long as you stay out the way and do not slow rehearsals down 'cos you are blowing it.

To me this is a much more humble approach and is much more do-able. It also takes a lot of pressure off you to try and learn to be a jazzman in 6 months in terms of being a soloist, being able to improvise freely.

Remember......... band leaders do not like to be made to look bad. If they do not feel confident in you you will not get a shot, definitely not a second shot after you blow it with them. Come in lower...... ask to be the rhythm player and then keep your ears open and learn. The older experienced cats will likely mess with you a lot....if they do they are testing you, not your ability.......your tenacity, the ability to take a joke. If you pass that they likely will start teaching you the tricks of the trade. If they dick with you it is often a good sign.

Just my opinion....maybe you are a prodigy and end up a tough soloist in 6 months or so. ?

The book to get is The Real Book which is a fake book of all the standards you will need to know. Then a GREAT way to learn jazz is with the Jamey Aebersold series. These are charts with a CD of the songs containing the accompaniment......piano, bass and drums....for you to blow the melody and solo over.

The main one you need to suss out first is "The II-V7-I Progression".

http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=JAJAZZ&Product_Code=V03DS&Category_Code=AEBPLA (Check out the audio examples)

Go for it dude and good luck with it.

Wow. Thanks Highway Chile. Dont worry, I take no offence to anything you said, I agree with you 100%. There is no ways I can be an 'accomplished' jazz musicians after only 6 months, if that were the case, I'd kinda be undermining jazz as a technical/difficult/practiced skill. Rythym playing is definitely a great start. I got some decent theory now on chord substitutions, and I can figure out most chords that the standards ask of me relatively quickly. The thing is that the stellies big band, requires as you said a rythym guitarist, but, the exception is that I will have to improve. They have a part where all the instruments improv, so I can't escape it. Now fortunately (and this is said with full respect to all Stellebosch Jazz Guitarists), the the guitarists I have seen in stellenbosch so far are not that impressive. Firstly you can never hear them comping, and secondly there solo's are weak and far from smooth, especially during the chord changes, which for me, is very important to get down. So I dont have a lot of serious competitors, but that being said, I dont want to be an average guitarist like them too. I want my improve's to be smooth and jazzy.

I know that CAN'T take 6 months, its near impossible, unless I am a prodigy ???. haha. But I'd atleast like to have the fundamental knowledge on what I should do when the right chord comes along. Say for example I get a Bm7b5, I want to know 1) atleast 3 places to play that chord around the neck 2) what scales/arpeggios/licks are available for me to use for that chord 3) and apply it. Its often step 3 that one battles with, especially me, as I cant apply the theory quick enough, and well, jazz is fast.

Actually last night, I was going over the chords for Day of wine and roses, Which I completely love, so I can p all the chords to it, and I'm not talking about basic 7th's either. I substitute most my dominant 7ths for dominant 9th's unless a 7th is called for. And also reguired to play A7b9, so I got the chords down, but I dont know what scales to play over them. and thats what I wanna learn.

Also, the thing you said about transposing in any key! Yes, very important, I cant do that now, well I'd need lots of practice first, but thats somethign I Need to get down. At the moment when I read a standard, I learn it like a song, instead of learning it by its chord numbers.

But thanks for your suggestions, its highly appreciated

I've been trying to learn and understand jazz the few years now.

to my suprise i figured out that you can know all the chords and fancy stuff, but you still need to be able to feel it.
As another musician once told me, if you want to learn jazz you must listen to jazz music 24/7 and all kinds of jazz to get it into your system. once you know what it should sound like, the rest is fairly easy.

So i would strongly recommend listening to alot of jazz over the next 6 months as well, put it on your ipod so you can listen to it while sleeping ?

FruitarGeek wrote: Actually last night, I was going over the chords for Day of wine and roses, Which I completely love, so I can p all the chords to it, and I'm not talking about basic 7th's either. I substitute most my dominant 7ths for dominant 9th's unless a 7th is called for. And also reguired to play A7b9, so I got the chords down, but I dont know what scales to play over them. and thats what I wanna learn.
Also, the thing you said about transposing in any key! Yes, very important, I cant do that now, well I'd need lots of practice first, but thats somethign I Need to get down. At the moment when I read a standard, I learn it like a song, instead of learning it by its chord numbers.

Hey FG wrt to scales for chords, check out Adam Kadmon's Guitar Grimoire - Chords & Voicings

Great. Thanks for the help.

Arjun, that book looks great (even the beginner one), the one you recommended seems difficult to get a hold. I will try none the less.

But so far, I am still very adamant about this. I just want to use this time now to prepare myself, and structure the time I have so that I can get the most out of the 6 months. So if you guys have techniques or better area's in jazz to focus on that will be better, then bring it on.

As many of you have said, including my own guitar advisor (he no longer teaches me, but is still a jazz guru for me to reference from), he says that spending 5 hours is not needed, all I have to do is listen untill I'm blue in the face (like what Manfred suggested), and try to play as many standards. I agree with him, but at the same time, I have to learn the theory and the scales before I can get down with the songs. So if you guys have a 'better' way that my 5 hours could be spent to achieve an overall decent jazz sound, lay it on.

I want to not only see this as massive practice, but also as a documented project, in which all your contributions will help achieve the result I want - provided I can stay motivated

a nice way to learn to solo over jazz, is 1st learn the chord structure of a specific standard and then be able to play the melody , cos once you know the melody you never get lost in a piece .....and when you solo you just simply keep the melody going in your head ........and if you know the chord structure then you will always know what chord is under which melody note..then just use your knowledge of chord formula's and harmonies to the the melody to solo over the changes . ...

? oh and just in case you mess up and you "make a mistake and go outa key when you solo " just insist you were playing outside and creating tension ? most people buy that as long as you can find your way back into key effortlessly or seamlessly , it can be very cool ....... even the best players drift off key but the trick is learning how to recover and slip back into key without stopping the phrase ..... and the more you play the better you get at "recovering"

also don't forget to listen to brass players for solo idea's most jazz guitarists draw a lot from listening to trumpet or sax solo's and even listening to a brass section and how they harmonise ....is a valuable lesson in intervals

lastly .... if you in a big band learn to play minimal chord voicings ....... cos quite often if you play too big/expansive a chord it can muddy the sound..so learn to leave off the roots and 5ths (cos ussually trhe pianist or bassist or both will have that covered .... so only play the 3rd (which dictates major or minor and the 7th or b7th ( which will dictate dominant or major 7th) and then any extensions( b5's /9/11/13 ect ...... ) sounds wierd alone but if you in the ensemble smaller chords work beautifully and you will be the bassists and pianists favourite for not clashing with their tones......

FruitarGeek wrote: Great. Thanks for the help.
Arjun, that book looks great (even the beginner one), the one you recommended seems difficult to get a hold. I will try none the less.
But so far, I am still very adamant about this. I just want to use this time now to prepare myself, and structure the time I have so that I can get the most out of the 6 months. So if you guys have techniques or better area's in jazz to focus on that will be better, then bring it on.
As many of you have said, including my own guitar advisor (he no longer teaches me, but is still a jazz guru for me to reference from), he says that spending 5 hours is not needed, all I have to do is listen untill I'm blue in the face (like what Manfred suggested), and try to play as many standards. I agree with him, but at the same time, I have to learn the theory and the scales before I can get down with the songs. So if you guys have a 'better' way that my 5 hours could be spent to achieve an overall decent jazz sound, lay it on.
I want to not only see this as massive practice, but also as a documented project, in which all your contributions will help achieve the result I want - provided I can stay motivated

Pleasure. FG, try sheetmusicplus.com or Carl Fischer publishing. If that fails, i've got a copy you can borrow.
Listening and playing the standards will definitely help you in a big way. I'm going to add learning different progressions & building your chord vocabulary to your list of must do things.
Also consider expanding what you know of position based playing (some timbres sound better in certain registers and you can get really nice chord clusters/comping without having to move around too much).

Keira WitherKay wrote: lastly .... if you in a big band learn to play minimal chord voicings ....... cos quite often if you play too big/expansive a chord it can muddy the sound..so learn to leave off the roots and 5ths (cos ussually the pianist or bassist or both will have that covered .... so only play the 3rd (which dictates major or minor and the 7th or b7th ( which will dictate dominant or major 7th) and then any extensions( b5's /9/11/13 ect ...... ) sounds wierd alone but if you in the ensemble smaller chords work beautifully and you will be the bassists and pianists favourite for not clashing with their tones......

What KW said. Build your chord vocabulary.

I'm just gonna be lame and start insulting CT jazz guitarists, not all of them - just the majority.

Please whatever you do, learn that a good jazz tone does not mean rolling out all your tone and sticking to the neck pickup. Some of the best tones in jazz are bright and articulate but sound warm because of how they sit in a mix. Great examples of this are Bireli Lagrene (My hero ?), Pat Martino and Robert Conti (8 string jazz player :-[). Too often I find Cape Town guitarists worship at the altar of George Benson, and don't get me wrong Benson is amazing but it's gotten old now and so many of them just sound like cheap imitations of the man...

Also get into Lenny Breau and George Van Eps, both played jazz on a 7 string and this is super awesome. Get a 7 string and do something SA isn't used to, then get an 8 cause that'll be even more awesome ?

I highly recommend getting into fusion as well, it's like the middle point between rock and jazz in some cases and can help to gently ease you into the mentality and help wrap you around the idea of playing changes that don't necessarily stick to a "safe" key center. For more Rock orientated fusion I recommend checking out the stuff Brett Garsed & TJ Helmerich did, or Shawn Lane, even Guthrie Govan ?

I also highly recommend checking out the album "Centrifugal Funk" by The Mark Varney project, this album features Shawn Lane, Brett Garsed and Frank Gambale all doing rock fusion covers of standards. I believe someone mentioned "So What" earlier 8)



Then check out the seriously boundary destroying music like Allan Holdsworth, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Tribal Tech and Jonas Hellborgs work with Shawn Lane. I recommend this stuff because quite often the jazz coming from South Africa really seems to lack any sort of musical innovation, and it's good to listen to people who are really strung out on the edge ?

I realise I'm probably coming across as quite a douche, but I honestly haven't ever seen anything that's really ground breaking come out of the Cape Town jazz scene and I've met too many arrogant UCT jazz students who seem to believe the opposite.

Oh and for the love of all that is holy throw some technically different stuff in there as well. I don't understand what the big issue is but for some strange reason it seems to be frowned upon if you sweep, 8 finger tap or bend in jazz (or at least this is what I've noticed in Cape Town), which I find strange as Bireli Lagrene sweeps a ton and I've definitly seen George Benson bend notes, yet somehow what's good enough for these incredible players is taboo here...

/rant

I apologise if that came across as insulting or rude to anyone, it was not meant to be ? I've had quite a few experiences with jazz players that have left a less than favourable impression on me, this probably leads me to be overly harsh towards them ?

Seriously though get a 7 string, and leave your tone knob alone! or if you are gonna use it use it properly ?

Ok Cool. Once again thanks. I managed to get a hold of this really huge jazz chord book. Its actually titled "Jazz Guitar Chord Bible" and has 184 pages of chords and chord inversions. My only 'problem' with this is, well, how do I remember all these chords? I made a concerted effort 3 or so months ago to learn all the chords in this one manual I have. Now there wasn't alot, but it had 4 different ways to play ALL the important chords, including your add9, dominant 9/11/13th's, sus, sharp 5 etc. Anyway, so thanks to that I learnt most the shapes, but now I have forgotten some of the other ways to play it, and I will need to jog my memory. But how can I learn a freaken bible of chords? What are some good learning strats.

By the way, Keira, what you said about learning the melody and underlying chords. Very important, I went to a jazz jam, and fortunately they played like 6 of the standards I know relatively well, and in my mind I was able to follow them. If I had my guitar there, I feel I could of comped very well - the solo is a different story haha. When you learn songs, do you learn them off by heart, or as roman numerals?

Yea Chad, I know the kind of muso's you talk of, I am not a big fan of that scene either. I HATE arrogant muso's. They think they are God's gift to music, and sadly I have seen this attitude in one to many jazz muso's who will look down upon anything rock orientated. I am a rock muso's primarily, so I'd like to have some bends and maybe some tapping done, but I do think first I must learn the 'rules' of jazz before I do that. I recently got into Weather Report, man those guys are AWESOME.

FruitarGeek wrote: By the way, Keira, what you said about learning the melody and underlying chords. Very important, I went to a jazz jam, and fortunately they played like 6 of the standards I know relatively well, and in my mind I was able to follow them. If I had my guitar there, I feel I could of comped When you learn songs, do you learn them off by heart, or as roman numerals?

? so yes i know the songs off by heart as in without using a chart ....... and of course i know what key they all in and since i know my chord/key theory , i always know which chord (number wise) i'm playing too so yes to both

Cool. Im getting more and more excited as I near closer to June (round about when I'd like to start)

Do you good people have any good books worth recommending for me to read in my quite time? And I am not meaning a sci fri fiction haha. Something guitar/jazz related, that might just add that extra edge to my knowledge. Im going to scout for the book Arjun suggested, but if there are any others . . .

Fruitar.....what is your current ability level as far as theory, chord knowledge etc? Can you read.....sightread........... do you have a thorough understanding of the modes and at least a few scales etc etc? How is your chord knowledge at this point in time and how fluent are you with substitutions .....blah blah blah......?

Highway Chile wrote: Fruitar.....what is your current ability level as far as theory, chord knowledge etc? Can you read.....sightread........... do you have a thorough understanding of the modes and at least a few scales etc etc? How is your chord knowledge at this point in time and how fluent are you with substitutions .....blah blah blah......?

Well. I don't know how I would grade my theory, but I understand chord construction, which mode (from the major scale) goes where. I havnt thus learnt the other scales such as the melodic, harmonic or bebop etc. Im hoping I will cover that in my 6 months. I can read music, but far from sight reading, also something I will look into. I suppose I should learn more about chord substitution. At the moment I have no idea why Jazz is allowed to use so many dominants when strictly speaking there should only be 1 dominant at the 5th interval. I do know that If I should ever see a chord, lets say a dom7, I can substitute it with dom9 or dom13 etc, as all chords are in the family. My friend keeps talking about "harmony theory" as if its some general spirit that lingers in jazz. He is yet to provide a definition, but he says I must learn that.

If you give me a song, I can figure out they key (may take a while), except if the song is like 'Giant Steps' then I will battle. But if I know the key, I know the modes, I can play the arpegio's over the chords, pentatonics. Im quite slow at this at the moment, my brain doesnt think fast enough