sound Music theory / modes advice needed

StephenG

hi all,

is there anyone on here with a solid qualification in music theory - in particular the modes - who would care to share some advice / resolve a dispute..???

either via PM, emial or phone?? I dont want to take up valuable forum space on something that may not interest many others.

hope someone can help.
krgds
stephen

aja

I'm sure it would interest others!

But I would contact Keira Witherkay or Guy Onraet

http://www.guyonraet.com/contact

http://www.keirawitherkay.com/keiracontact.cfm

evolucian

odds are ... your dispute will never really be solved. If i can help, cool... if i can't... i'll pass it on to someone who can blow yr mind... hehehe

StephenG

evolucian wrote: odds are ... your dispute will never really be solved. If i can help, cool... if i can't... i'll pass it on to someone who can blow yr mind... hehehe

thanks for sticking up your hand for this one Peter -will send you a message shortly...

Grant-Tregellas

Sure, I don't have an "official" degree in the subject, but I'm sure I can help you out.
There's lots of dis-information about this topic! ?

If you still need help get back to me here and I will give you my email address.

aja

All this secrecy is driving me crazy ???

DonovanB

aja wrote: All this secrecy is driving me crazy ???

about the thread or modes in general?

aja

Donovan Banks wrote:
aja wrote: All this secrecy is driving me crazy ???
about the thread or modes in general?

The thread LOL! ?

Renesongs

What kind of modes are we talking here Major, Harmonic minor, Gregorian, pentatonic CAGED please post your question their are a lot of theory geeks including Evo and myself that live only to impress you with our musical wisdom. ?

PeteM

Yeah, lets hear it all - that's what the forum is all about - meaty subject matter.

evolucian

It was quite a wicked dispute between various teachers and their train of thought... then mine got added... seems it worked, lol... but like i said, the dispute is not resolved really... if u check on UG and do a search on modes, you'll probably find close on a thousand entries... and in each thread everyone starts arguing with each other... its quite hilarious sometimes.

Sometimes its best to just add some George Carlin logic... ?

Grant-Tregellas

To understand the modes, you need to backtrack a bit and understand the harmonized scale. In this case, the Major scale

The basic theory behind creating chords is to choose any given note of the scale, skip the next, add the next on top, skip the next, add the next..etc.
Theoretically this is termed stacking thirds, or more geeky "tertian harmony".

e.g C Major scale = C D E F G A B then continues up an octave C D E F G A B

For the benefit of the explanation, consider the scale to be a continuous "multi-octave scale" like this

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C D .....

So, choosing the note C, we then skip a note (D), stack the next (E), skip the next (F) and stack the next (G)
We then end up with a 3 note chord (or triad) with the notes:

C E G (or better known as C major triad) or just plain C.

The first note C we call the root, E is the 3rd and G is the 5th. That should be obvious just by counting up the scale.

*sorry if this is all obvious, just bear with me ?

Now do exactly the same for D...

D, skip E, F, skip G, A

Gives you..

D F A or D minor (why?)

why not just D?

If we take the notes from C upwards chromatically we get the following:

C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B
1 b2 2 b3 3 4 b5 5 b6 6 b7 7 (geek alert: yes I know b6 should actually be #5, just made more sense, don't shoot me)

The distance between C and E (the root and 3rd from C major triad before is 4 steps, or semitones)
This distance is known as a MAJOR THIRD, sometimes written maj3.

The distance between the C and G (root and 5th is 7 steps, or semitones)
This distance is known as a Perfect 5th. Sometimes notated P5.

Now compare the D minor chord. (notes D F A remember)

Count up...the distance between D and F is..?

Right...3 steps, or what is known as a minor third, sometimes notated m3.

The distance between D and A is 7 steps,

Which is a perfect 5th.

So.....compare those 2 chords

C is: root, major 3rd, Perfect 5th
Dm is: root, minor 3rd, Perfect 5th.

This basic music theory is fundamental to understanding modes...

If we carry on through the entire C major scale, ie one note at a time doing the same
process you will find a pattern emerge.

Of the 7 notes in ANY key, this is the pattern.

1 major
2 minor
3 minor
4 major
5 major
6 minor
7 diminished

So in C major, we get the following Harmonized scale:

1 C major
2 D minor
3 E minor
4 F major
5 G major
6 A minor
7 B Diminished

To further reinforce this knowledge, here is the key of Eb major

Eb F G Ab Bb C D
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Apply the pattern, you get

Eb major
F minor
G minor
Ab major
Bb major
C minor
D diminished

*Note: Diminished triad is spelt root, minor 3rd, Diminished 5th (b5, which is 6 semitones)
its exactly the same as a minor triad, just the 5th is lowered one note. Sounds cool.

Last Step With Chords:

Continue the idea of "stacking thirds one more time...

Use C as the example again...

C, skip D, E, skip F, G, skip A, B or more simply C E G B

Its just the same C triad (C E G) with an added B

The note B (in relation to the note C) is known as a Major 7th (11 semitones)

So the spelling now is Root, Major 3rd, Perfect 5th and Major 7th

That is called a C major Seventh Chord or Cmaj7 for short.

Now look at D minor

Follow the same process you will end up with the note D F A C

Just a D minor triad (D F A) with a C on top

But notice the C (on top of the D minor triad) is only 10 steps away (check the chromatic scale)

This distance (interval) is known as a Minor Seventh.

So we get the spelling D F A C

Or root, minor 3rd, Perfect 5th, Minor 7th

This is known a D minor seventh chord, or Dm7.

The harmonized scale using 4 NOTE CHORD is now:

1 Maj7
2 Min 7
3 Min7
4 Maj7
5 Dom7 (*get to that now)
6 Min7
7 Dim7

*The Dom7 is spelt root, major 3rd, perfect 5th and MINOR 7.
In the key of C the notes for that chord are G B D F

So, in C major we get:

1 Cmaj7
2 Dm
3 Em7
4 Fmaj7
5 G7
6 Am7
7 Bdim7

I prefer to "see" this vertically:

Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fma7 G7 Am7 Bdim
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

MODES AT LAST!

So, we have established that each degree of the major scale (1-7) has a fundamental Maj, Minor or Diminished sound
associated with it right?

What does that have to do with modes?

Nothing and Everything...

Nothing: Degree 1 (C in this case), Degree 4 (F) and Degree 5 (G) are the fundamental major sound if we just
take the first 3 notes of each chord: Cmaj, Fmaj, and Gmaj,

Everything: It ALL has to do with the notes that fall BETWEEN THE CHORD TONES, and how they are different from one another!

So.....

The best way to figure this out is to go back to the old chromatic scale again.

Number the notes starting at ANY GIVEN PITCH in the scale, lets use the note C, we get

C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A#
1 b2 2 b3 3 4 #4 5 #5 6 b7

*note: #4 is the same as b5
#5 is the same as b6
b7 is the same as #6 etc this is known as "enharmonic equivalents"

So the notes C D E F G A B

give you the formula: 1(C) 2(D) 3(E) F(4) G(5) A(6) B(7) or simply 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

NOW...IMPORTANT!!

Start counting from the note F upwards into the next octave. So make F = 1.

F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D#
1 b2 2 b3 3 4 #4 5 #5 6 b7

You are counting the notes of the C major scale starting on the note F, right?

F G A B C D E
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

Ok...

Now compare the 2 scale FORMULAS:

C: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
F: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

The 2 scales are almost the same except for 1 degree, the 4th.

If you count the C major scale from G (try it), make G=1 G A B C D E F

you get the formula: G(1) A(2) B(3) C(4) D(5) E(6) F(b7)

Compare all three:

C: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
F: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
G: 1 2 4 4 5 6 b7

***Each degree of ANY major scale is assigned a formula name OR MODE****

The formula 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = Major Scale

The formula 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 = Lydian Mode

The formula 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 = Mixolydian Mode

Just like each degree had a chord associated with it, so too does each degree have a MODE associated with it.

The formula for any major key is:

1. Major
2. Dorian
3. Phrygian
4. Lydian
5. Mixolydian
6. Aeolian
7. Locrian

So C major has 7 modes:

1. C major
2. D Dorian
3. E Phrygian
4. F Lydian
5. G Mixolydian
6. A Aeolian (or Natural Minor, same thing)
7. B Locrian

In the key of Eb:

1. Eb Major
2. F Dorian
3. G Phrygian
4. Ab Lydian
5. Bb Mixoydian
6. C Aeolian
7. D Locrian

THE CONFUSION!

Most people say "Each of the modes is just made up of the same notes in the scale, they sound the same"
True, until you play them in PARALLEL.

Using the formula's: Play C major ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7) then C Lydian (1 2 3 #4 5 6 7) then C Mixolydian (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7)
and compare the sounds..

The notes for the above scales are:

C Major: C D E F G A B
C Lydian: C D E F# G A B
C Mixoydian: C D E F G A Bb

Use a low DRONE note on a keyboard. Hold the C on the keys in the bass and play each of the above over that.
You will hear the difference and it will make more sense than any of this theory does.

Do the same for all of the modes starting on the note C.

Using the chromatic scale and the MODAL FORMULA's (like the 3 above) work out how to play each mode:

Here are the formula's:

Major: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Phygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

In note terms:

C D E F G A B

C D Eb F G A Bb

C Db Eb F G Ab Bb

C D E F# G A B

C D E F G A Bb

C D Eb F G Ab Bb

C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb

Confused?

Hope not, it took me ages to get it...

Any mistakes in this post are mine, please point them out.

Thanks

Grant

Bob-Dubery

Grant,

You went to a lot of trouble there. Thanks.

I think I am still confused about this matter, but on a higher level now.

Bob

StephenG

the secret behind the modal system, is just that = a secret!! and no one is telling!! unless you know the secret handshake - which is an absolute bugger to do across an internet forum.

Thanks for the comprehensive post there Grant - having not actually seen the original question I emailed to Peter, your reply is probably about 2 pages shorter than what the question was - LOL ? ? it really was a long winded question.. but you have managed to cover the answer in your reply - thanks a plenty!

Peter and I kicked it back and forth - i then took the consensus of our discussion to both tutors.... they read it, agreed it made sense.. and we all had tea and scones...

but about 3 days later, and numerous google searches, they were both led astray again by the innumerable opinions on the internet about modes and scales.

so after delving deeper into the mystery of modes and finally finding the holy grail answer.. I have decided to break the sworn code of silence and put an end to the secrecy behind the modes..

so if I am never heard from again, its because I revealed to the world , a secret so dark, a secret so deep, that people have killed to protect it.. (not even Dan Brown would dare write about it !! ) ....................................but the truth about modes is.............. some sound nicer than others !

Grant-Tregellas

? "confused on a higher level" I like that.

There's more to the confusion for most people than just understanding the concept of modes.

It's in the application that the problem arises, or at least that's where the debate begins.

The fact is, if you use your ears, you end up applying the modes without even knowing weird names
like "super-trixolydian minor" etc.

I'm still waiting to learn the secret handshake as well...Maybe they all sit around debating the subject
at the old Masonic club down the road in Simonstown!

StephenG

Grant Tregellas wrote:
I'm still waiting to learn the secret handshake as well...Maybe they all sit around debating the subject
at the old Masonic club down the road in Simonstown!

bwahahahahahahah... its in Glencairne....!!!!!!!!!!! close enough to meet at The Glen for a drink afterwards.

well spotted Grant.

Squonk

@ Grant

After reading your post I am a bit sad that I missed your set at Andy's on Saturday. I had to leave at 17:00

Good having you on board and as Bob has declared "Higher Level Confusion!"

Renesongs

@ Grant - you spoiled our fun :'( (as a guitarist it is my duty to say I could have done it better ?)

Bob-Dubery

Squonk wrote: @ Grant

After reading your post I am a bit sad that I missed your set at Andy's on Saturday. I had to leave at 17:00

Good having you on board and as Bob has declared "Higher Level Confusion!"

Squonkster, (and you too, Dear Reader)

You might want to check out Grant's website with it's cool on-line lessons, and in particular
http://grant-tregellas.com/2010/09/play-jazz-chords-with-just-3-fingers/

Keira-WitherKay

for those of you that don't know him, grant tregellas is an incrediblly knowledgable musician and fulltime guitarist to afro funk goddess " Lira" i hope i got the spelling right ....and is truly a world class musician .......both live and in the studio ... yep this white boy is making it in the black market ....and making it big ...... but no one trick pony.........wait till you hear him shred or play acoustic and.... and..... and ......and ............ pure talent ........he's truley one of the most all round talented musicians i have the pleasure of knowing ..........so pay attention to his advice he's not only got the theory waxed and i mean waxed ......but playing gigs at highest level with the stars .......... he's not just talking the talk .........but putting his guitar where his mouth is ...........and at the highest levels in this country

( ps grant i hope that cheque is in the mail for the image boost ? )

welcome to the site grant .... your input will be appreciated here .........