Tone experiment

NorioDS · 2021-11-23T07:54:59+00:00

Is tone really in the wood? I have a kind of horrible Starfire strat that I’m thinking of upgrading a bit. It gets zero playtime right now but has a ton o...

Tone experiment

modulator

As Studmissile indicates. If you find the guitar playable (fits well, feels OK, plays lekker) and only hate the sound, it is worth it to work on it. After you have exhausted all the options of pickup height, action, volume-tone settings.

If you do decide to work on it, start with fine-tuning the setup. Fit/make a bone nut.
One needs to know what pots, capacitors and pickup type is in it, might be easy to start with re-wiring to a different 5 position switch option and tone control options, with smaller capacitors. If the pots are small, go CTS Log pots all round. Treble bleed (Kinman type) on the Volume pot, tone pot for the Neck and Middle pickups, and a tone pot for the Bridge. You could look at the posts I made on my Korean Squire Strat.

NorioDS

modulator might be easy to start with re-wiring to a different 5 position switch option and tone control options, with smaller capacitors. If the pots are small, go CTS Log pots all round. Treble bleed (Kinman type) on the Volume pot, tone pot for the Neck and Middle pickups, and a tone pot for the Bridge. You could look at the posts I made on my Korean Squire Strat.

This was Greek to me 😛

I've just assumed it's a rubbish guitar because that's what I've heard (and vaguely remember). But it could just be that I was after a fatter sound and now, a more mature version of me might be open to some single coil sounds.

I'll take all my guitars out today and hopefully take this one for a spin and come back with some notes on it.

Thanks all!

NorioDS

studmissile Is the neck comfortable to play? No nasty fret edges? Is the action too high? Fret Buzz? If you've never really connected with it as a playable guitar, it unfortunately might not be?

All great questions. I need to take her for a spin. I don't remember at all. I think the jack was a bit scratchy but that's usually not too serious.

Yeti

I did a very similar thing to this on my first electric a couple of years ago.
I replaced the turners and dropped in a completely wired scratch plate.
The tuners were pretty generic but a lot better than the previous set. The scratch plate was from a 90s MIJ strat and sounds great. I got both from SAMIS and picked them up for a song.

... now that I think about it I might have replaced the bridge too... but apparently I'm getting old because I can't quite remember.

NorioDS

Yeti That's cool! What did it set you back for the tuners and scratch plate?

A fully wired scratch plate, if it comes in the right colour, might be a fun way for me to upgrade the look of the guitar at the same time. It's an awful blue with a plain white scratchplate. Black might look a bit edgier and suit me better.

Yeti

NorioDS
It was only a few hundred rand all told.... but I did spend some time shopping around

NorioDS

Yeti That's great!

I suppose that once I know what I want, I'll know what to look for. Right now, it's all completely undefined.

"Shoot for nothing, hit nothing."

NorioDS

Ok so the frets need some filing down!

Tone sounds ok through my bass amp. Haven’t tested on my BR-600 coz its batteries are flat. And the micro terror is being packed up to sell.

Main thing I noticed is scratchy sounds from switching pickups. I think it’s just rust or similar. A slap gets it working again.

More pics coming

NorioDS

Taking it apart was super easy! Makes me feel confident that I can swap out some parts. I’d prefer to avoid soldering if I can though. Zero experience and no tools.

studmissile

Picture of the tuners?
Is that Japanese made, looks nice?

NorioDS

studmissile

After a bit of Googling, damn, it looks like it could’ve been built in Japan! Nagoya is on the neck plate and it’s a city in Japan.

Maybe I have a half decent strat copy on my hands?!

Here’s the tuners:

V8

NorioDS Japan.

Maybe I have a half decent strat copy on my hands?!

Looks like it! I've google it before, but there is not much more info than you found.

Tuners - is there any slop (play when you tighten/loosen the winder?). These tuners can be hit n miss, sometimes they're fine, usually not. Cheap upgrade (R350ish) to something from blackbeards den.TerryD - figure out what part you need from this handy guide. Install isn't always straightforward, might need to do a little fitting, widen the peg holes, re-drill a few mounting holes.

It's easy to drop R2k+ on fancy tuners - I wouldn't until you are are using that guitar a lot.

Pickups - I'm guessing but those look like ceramic magnet'ed pickups. The steel baseplate is eerily familiar (Like the ones in my strat). Not a bad pickup, but certainly not regarded as a classic sounding strat puckip, ceramic magnets tend to be a bit trebley/harsh, often slightly higher output and can handle a bit of gain - though these you have are probably microphonic (mine are!)

if you can find someone upgrading their Classic VIbe Squire, grab those pickups! See what alinco pups are floating sourng the 2nd hand market. I did find a source for Classic Vibe replacement pups via Paul Bothners - last I checked (2018?) was around R550/pup

I'd get the guitar playable before this upgrade - A/B with a few of the GT'ers strats before deciding.

Wiring
Ummm, can't really tell from the photo's if the pots/switch are decent or not. Alpha pots are usually fine, these probably fine for now - might need a service with some switch cleaner to cure some scratchiness?

Upgrades to these parts, I think it's a good idea (CTS/Switchcraft bits) - tone difference? It's always debatable - I think when I've done a upgrades to the pots/switch I've gotten a decent result. Though I usually change pot values/upgrade wiring/add in a mod.

Frets

I can't really see them in any photo - though in one, they do look a bit worn below the 7th fret? Likely a partial fret dress -that's a job I'd pay for someone to do - crowning frets is a PITA - second to none.

Body/rest

That looks like a solid piece of wood - I'm not spying any ply or chipboard? If it's lightweight possibly basswood, if not maybe alder. Nice colour, looks classy with maple fretboard.

Someone will say you should add a high mass bridge block - easy enough, but not the callaham block made of unobtanium - you can find better places for that $!

Nut - can get a graphtech one for cheap - but likely it will need a little setup to fit nice. Saddles look fine for now. Scratchy jack is often just a little cleanup & tighten in the socket.

Nice one, that was fun!

NorioDS

Well I’ll be!

NorioDS

Update on my Starfire strat...

Tone wise...

So I cleaned her up pretty good, put her back together again, chucked on some new strings and she sounds pretty good.

I "fixed" the scratchy frets by running the side of my allen key up and down the neck. It took the jagged edges off and doesn't seem to have damaged the neck at all. So it's a lot more playable right now.

I'm not used to having so few frets though. That's throwing me off.

The pickup toggle switch seems to "cut out" at times. It's pretty rare and a jiggle fixes it. It's also "loud" when I switch pickups. Not super loud but audible enough to distract you from the playing.

The tone pots don't seem to have much of an effect on the pickup tones but I only tested them slightly this morning. I'll need to test 'em a bit more.

On a clean setting, the bridge pup is kinda harsh on the higher notes. But chuck some distortion on and it's a fun sound.

Over to your recommendations and help...

V8 Tuners - is there any slop (play when you tighten/loosen the winder?).

No complaints there! (So far)

V8 Not a bad pickup, but certainly not regarded as a classic sounding strat puckip, ceramic magnets tend to be a bit trebley/harsh, often slightly higher output and can handle a bit of gain - though these you have are probably microphonic (mine are!)

That totally checks out. Especially in the bridge position — they're harsh but sound good with the gain turned up.

V8 if you can find someone upgrading their Classic VIbe Squire, grab those pickups! See what alinco pups are floating sourng the 2nd hand market. I did find a source for Classic Vibe replacement pups via Paul Bothners - last I checked (2018?) was around R550/pup

Thanks! I'll try do that. So for a classic strat sound, I should be looking for alnico single coil pups?

V8 I'd get the guitar playable before this upgrade - A/B with a few of the GT'ers strats before deciding.

Very nice idea, I should definitely try that.

V8 they do look a bit worn below the 7th fret?

I haven't looked to be honest. I just about never look at those things but now's a good time to start! I'll check that out the next time I pick her up for a jam.

V8 Scratchy jack is often just a little cleanup & tighten in the socket.

Yep that did it! After a bit of tightening, no issues on the jack.

studmissile Pro setup and fret dress.

After a cleanup, I'm hemming and hawing about this. Seems like she plays OK as-is but... if I end up spending money on upgrades (like the pups) then I figure I might as well get the setup and fret dress done properly and at the same time.

studmissile I'd just hardtail it rather than mess around with tremolo system,

I'm so used to having guitars with floating bridges that this is an easy adjustment. Much less work, way faster to tune. And I like using it for a bit of vibrato. (That's about all I use the trem for on all my guitars. No divebombs here, even though I'm such a big Satch fan :-P)

studmissile Ideally you'd want to sit and play if for a while, even unplugged to see if you connect with it? If after a month you enjoy it drop in some vintage tone riders

I really like this idea and am already enjoying the guitar. Playability is pretty much fine and it feels cool to be able to play a guitar that I was only keeping around for sentimental reasons. Funny how we can make assumptions about cheap things that are actually half decent.

studmissile That switch is Japanese. You'll find it in MIJ Fenders and MIJ Tokais.

The pickup switch? Great! Hopefully I can get a decent replacement. Right now it's the one area of the guitar that is affecting my jamming.

modulator Nice guitar. Some switch cleaner into the switch and pots, and see.

I was quite lucky here, Brendan on the WA group suggested just turning them back and forth a few times. I did each one around 30 times and now — no scratchiness.

Might need to put switch cleaner into the pickup switch though. Definitely noisy.

modulator The pickups, I see the height adjusters screw through the baseplate? Is it possible to remove those metal baseplates at all? Will make a difference to the tone. I would be tempted to remove the plates. Different opinions on what they do, but with them you should expect a "harder" sound? A smoother, "wider", lower power sound without?

That's interesting and could be a very cheap fix for the harshness. Thanks! I'll take a look at that the next time I have her opened up.

modulator While you are at it, shield the cavities, and add aluminium foil all over the bottom of the scratch plate.

What does that do?

modulator Only spend dollops of money if you find the guitar playable and comfortable to play.

Luckily that's turning out to be true. I feel pretty blessed because, otherwise, it was just going to sit in a cupboard until I one day died 🤣

studmissile

Could be a sweet guitar. You'd want to focus on the integrity of the neck first. Pro setup and fret dress. If the guitar plays well after that, replace the tuners with vintage kluson style six in line to cover the old holes from original tuners. Nut still looks new. Pretty sure that's basswood. I'd just hardtail it rather than mess around with tremolo system,

Ideally you'd want to sit and play if for a while, even unplugged to see if you connect with it? If after a month you enjoy it drop in some vintage tone riders. That switch is Japanese. You'll find it in MIJ Fenders and MIJ Tokais.

modulator

Nice guitar. Some switch cleaner into the switch and pots, and see.

I would upgrade to CTS Log pots, and a new 5 way switch like I did on my Squier Strat. If the switch fits the cavity depth.

The tuners, if they are sloppy, service them? You can bend the bracket ears holding the knob shaft a bit (small hammer and pin punch), clean the gears and posts, the head bushes, and lightly add Vaseline to the gears. Save a lot of money, which you can spend later, if you absolutely cannot live with these tuners anymore.
The pickups, I see the height adjusters screw through the baseplate? Is it possible to remove those metal baseplates at all? Will make a difference to the tone. I would be tempted to remove the plates. Different opinions on what they do, but with them you should expect a "harder" sound? A smoother, "wider", lower power sound without? The ceramic magnets are not optimal, but do have tonal influences beyond the normal "they are harsh" thing. I enjoy the sound from those in my Squier Strat, even though I would like to upgrade just to hear if the upgrade is "better". Not soon. I'm afraid I might prefer the ""wider" mellower sound of the standard pickups, and all the work would be wasted. This is where wired pickguards come in. Hmm, could do it that way...

You can worry about the trem block later, but it does make a difference! But not the commercial price difference. If you do not mind a bit of boer maak 'n plan backyard DIY on it, fit longer screws holding it to the bridge plate, and tap those into a piece of flatbar, fastening the flatbar edge-on behind the trem block, to add mass. Another, simpler, better(?) option is to screw a plate directly to the trem block, drill two holes through the casting between the strings, tap the "mass" block and screw it vas.
Although block material is said to have an influence on the sound, extra mass is what works, I would think. Decide on how loose you want that trem plate to be on the guitar, many pointers and ideas on the internet about those six screws...

While you are at it, shield the cavities, and add aluminium foil all over the bottom of the scratch plate.

Only spend dollops of money if you find the guitar playable and comfortable to play. Huge difference between these and an Ibanez RG, neck-wise. As such, I need to rid myself of a rather nice Washburn, on which I had many years of quality fun, just because the neck does not fit my fingers quite right. The string spacing is the same as another guitar I play on, without a problem, but somehow, my fingers has to struggle to fit. It has always been like that, I blamed it on the narrower nut width, but much later, closer investigation revealed the string spacing is fine. That guitar has a super action, but very low output single coils. The neck pickup does make a very nice sound, though. I have never had it open to investigate, and with the playing problem, will not do so. What, with the Ibanez's around, why bother? The Squier Strat is a different matter - it plays. I do hope your guitar is worth it as well. Set up well, it might be a wonderful guitar to play with.

NorioDS

Great replies that each deserve attention.

Here’s a tiny update until I can reply in full.

I’ve done nothing on the guitar since taking it apart. I think I have to clean it up and take it in for a decent setup.

From there I’ll start testing the tones with "strat" like riffs and then start hunting around for pickups and a few other upgrades you’ve all recommended.

V8

NorioDS The tone pots don't seem to have much of an effect on the pickup tones but I only tested them slightly this morning. I'll need to test 'em a bit more.

From you investigations, I reckon It's wired up as a 'classic' strat. The two tones controls are for middle & neck respectively - there's no tone for the bridge, it's wide open, like a ice-pick to the earhole 😀 With what looks like a ceramic pup, it's even more so!

Cheap 'fix' - just wire the bridge into one of the other tone knobs. Or, if you re-do the wiring look into a master tone mod (all three pups through one tone knob) and also a 'treble bleed' mod - which preserves the high end, when you roll off the volume knob.

NorioDS But chuck some distortion on and it's a fun sound.

Could cut through any Slipknot mix 😸

NorioDS So for a classic strat sound, I should be looking for alnico single coil pups?

Yeah, prettyy much. For me, there is soooo much cork sniffing (ala tonewoods) that you really need a decent idea of tone you are hearing before dropping BEEG $$$ on pups. Also if you drop $$$ of pickups, you'll be doing them a dis-service by not getting the pots, switch, jack and wiring in shape for them. I noticed such a huge difference in the kinmans I had when the pots/etc were upgraded. But if someone had a set of Fender usa/Tokai MIJ/Classic Vibe pups for R1.5k or less - then let temptation take you where it will,

Or even just upgrade one pup at a time...I could happily survive if only the neck pup was decent (position 5). I seldom use 1,2,3,4 positions - the bridge is for when the metal zone has a 9V it likes.

NorioDS While you are at it, shield the cavities, and add aluminium foil all over the bottom of the scratch plate.

What does that do?

Helps shield the single coil pups from signal/rf noise - particularly noticeable when you are running drive/gain through em. Try some high gain sounds (no noise gate and take your fingers off the strings) through it around a monitor/etc - there is certainly a reason why, erm, humbuckers exists. Heh.

Shielding helps lots, but doesn't totally eliminate it. Some pickup manufacturers have noiseless SC pickups (fender, kinman, etc) - The V3 fender noiseless ones arn't bad! But unless you are recording or gigging in noisy venues, not something you need to hassle with - though if a set materializes at a decent price - why not.

modulator

The tone pots that do not, I had that problem on the Squier Strat too. Best way to address this is new pots and different capacitor values, and wiring the one tone pot to the bridge. There are many opinions about log pots vs. linear pots for tone and volume, I am in the log (audio taper) pot camp.

Once you get the setup sorted, and you find you do have a good guitar, upgrade the electronics...