Luthier's Mercantile - www.lmii.com

I'm also interested in this
Hey Alan, do you know of anywhere locally to get spruce for a top?

You could try Rare woods (think it's www.rarewood.co.za) Although I would check out LMI as well, they have some amazing pieces, some incredibly knowledgeable staff, and a great desire to share all of the above.

Wow is spruce really that expensive? For 2 sheets to make a top it's about 300 - 500 bucks excl. shipping?? ?
I thought spruce was common in those parts?? I mean this is the same tree they cut down each year as Christmas trees....

Or is this because its engelman or Sitka spruce?

Chocklit_Thunda wrote: Wow is spruce really that expensive? For 2 sheets to make a top it's about 300 - 500 bucks excl. shipping?? ?
I thought spruce was common in those parts?? I mean this is the same tree they cut down each year as Christmas trees....

Or is this because its engelman or Sitka spruce?

Spruce is common, big pieces without knots,checks or cracks are not

Chocklit_Thunda wrote: Wow is spruce really that expensive? For 2 sheets to make a top it's about 300 - 500 bucks excl. shipping?? ?
I thought spruce was common in those parts?? I mean this is the same tree they cut down each year as Christmas trees....

Or is this because its engelman or Sitka spruce?

Some suppliers provide different sized pieces for different guitars. An OM and a Jumbo have very different dimensions. Grain, run-out and appearance will also be determinants. Mandolin sets are usually smaller and cheaper.

Sitka and Engleman are not the only spruce options. Adirondack can also be used, though I think that might cost a bit more. Some European varieties are also used.

Other woods - mahogany, koa (which I think will be expensive), redwood (ditto) and cedar. There are tonal considerations here - especially with cedar which has a faster, more explosive attack than spruce. There are construction trade offs as well. Cedar is not as strong along the grain as spruce and so the tops must be cut a little thicker. Cedar also has a very short playing in time compared to spruce.

For tone wood there are local options - notably kiaat, a wood that Mervyn Davis uses a lot (including for necks). Also ironwood for fingerboards and bridges, though I suspect that is going to punish your tools. Sapele is used more and more often these. Sometimes labelled "African mahogany", and it's tonally very close to that wood.

Some notes that may help: http://www.benjaminguitars.co.uk/woods.htm

X-rated Bob wrote: Some notes that may help: http://www.benjaminguitars.co.uk/woods.htm

Though Nick Benjamin seems to have little truck with maple. Some folks like that, but it can produce a very bright sounding guitar.

I have a friend in Natal who has cedar that's been stored on his farm. Would that work?

Yeah I get your points about the spruce without knots and cracks but surely the trees grow large, like pine trees, to give sufficient wood for a good few tops per trees? Unless its a wood that's prone to knots and cracks (I admit I know very little about spruce and its species)

Bob, about those other woods, would they have the same strength as spruce does to handle the tensions on the top? Or is it perhaps that spruce is stronger than needed for the forces? Kind of an "overkill"? I played mahogany topped guitar as well.

Different species, and even different pieces within that species will have different strength, stiffness, density and so on attributes.
Depending on the cut of your cedar at your friends house, if it has been stored for a while, under suitable humidty/temperature conditions, I think you could use it (not certain tho).
You'd need to have enough chunk so as to get at least two quartersawn boards out, although if your block is nicely oriented for two, you'll likely be able to get many quartersawn blocks.

Chocklit_Thunda wrote: Bob, about those other woods, would they have the same strength as spruce does to handle the tensions on the top? Or is it perhaps that spruce is stronger than needed for the forces? Kind of an "overkill"? I played mahogany topped guitar as well.

Clearly they can do the job because you get the guitars. There may be extra bracing or thicker tops required, but I'm no expert.

Cedar has to be cut a little thicker to do the job. I don't know specifically about the others, but my understanding is that spruce - grown in cool to cold climates - has the highest ratio of strength along the grain to weight (thus was also desirable for air frames in the early days of aviation - see "spruce goose").

Cedar is becoming increasingly popular, especially amongst the boutique builders - though Taylor offer some cedar models.

I'd recommend googling. That way you'll also find out which woods are hard on tools or promote runny noses and sore eyes.

Hey, Chocklit thunder, - I too am on a farm in Natal, maybe I could go and check-out the cedar on your buddie's farm? I mate of mine has built a few guitars and knows what to look for, I could take him along and get his opinion. What say?

X-rated Bob wrote: That way you'll also find out which woods are hard on tools or promote runny noses and sore eyes.

I think this is more about you than the wood. All woods promote the above, but in different users.

Shibbibilybob wrote: I think this is more about you than the wood. All woods promote the above, but in different users.

No, there are some woods that cause allergic reactions in everyone. Cocobolo is a good example.

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:

Shibbibilybob wrote: I think this is more about you than the wood. All woods promote the above, but in different users.

No, there are some woods that cause allergic reactions in everyone. Cocobolo is a good example.

Yes. And there's a reason that sneeze wood is called sneeze wood.

I started reading up on topwoods looking for alternatives and came across a few sites where the hardness of the wood and the Janka hardness test was discussed. It seems spruce is a softwood that's even softer than some species of pine... I know the strength also comes from the grain but then shouldn't a softwood with a straight grain like Pine be a fitting alternative as a topwood? What about the other coniferous trees? Most have tight, straight grains and grow quite large as well as having low Janka ratings. Do you think that woods such as Douglas Fir, cypress, yellowwood, larch, redwood, yew, juniper, pine, cedar or any other that I forget could be used as a successful acoustic guitar top? (I know cedar and redwood have been used and I know Cole Clark guitars use Bunya wood)

I wonder if the guitar manufacturers have been lying to us about spruce being THE tonewood ???

The sites I read from:

http://woodgears.ca/hardness_test/

http://www.oregonwildwood.com/janka.html

http://www.guitarbench.com/tonewood-database/

You'll notice most of these have a hardness of under 700.

So my theory about the topwoods being extremely hard is gone... I was gonna try saligna and walnut.....

Interesting subject