Monitoring on Stage

epictring

This is something that I've noticed for a while.

My bands vocalist (female) sings well, and she sounds exceptionally great on acoustic type gigs where stage volumes aren't as loud as a full on rock band setup.

For some reason she just doesn't sound as great in the "rock setup" as she does in acoustic gigs. I'm hinting that she can't always properly hear herself on the rock stage monitoring and she tries to compensate by singing louder.

Is there any easy solution to this type of problem? Like in-ear monitoring for example.

AlanRatcliffe

If the vocals are not loud enough in the monitor mix, then she will sing louder and she will go sharp - that's the nature of the beast.

Louder monitor mixes will help but there are obviously limits on gain before feedback (and the more mics and wedges on stage, the less gain you will get). Ringing out your monitor system helps and anti-feedback devices can help you get up to double the gain. The other option is for the band to play at more reasonable stage levels (but that's a difficult one to get most bands to understand - especially guitarists and drummers. ?).

In-ears help because they remove the need for wedges and block out a lot of what is going on on stage and replace it with what she wants to hear. So yes... in short, in-ears help a lot.

DonRoos

Alan, you are spot on. As lead vocalist for our band I find that on stage, everyone wants to be heard over everyone else. One solution is to have individual monitor mixes, especially for the vocalist where they are louder than the instruments and can hear themselves properly. Unfortunately, smaller/older mixers do not provide multiple monitor feeds and this is not possible. If you want to use in-ears, they should ideally have a seperate feed like individual monitor mixes - otherwise they will just produce the same cacophony that is coming out of the basic monitor mix.

Perhaps another solution would be to feed the vocalist mic into a pre-amp on stage and feed in-ears from this. Perhaps even a set of cheep in-ear earphones may do the trick. I am also trying to find a decent solution and can't afford a good set of in-ear monitors.

If only the rest of the band would just tone down I would be happy. I often have to wear ear plugs if the sound gets too loud and that means I hear even less vocals in the monitor.

FruitarGeek

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: in short, in-ears help a lot.

But be prepared to pay a lot of money for them. They don't come cheap - and if they do, they not worth getting

epictring

What are good brands for IEM to look at?

DonRoos

My son (a sound engineer who works with them all the time on live stages) says Shure and Plantronics are the only brands to look at. You can't go wrong with them, both great brands.

Gearhead

Shure psm200 @6k ouch. Then again, don't need a desk with 5 aux buses, maybe that saves a little. Also don't need wedges, might turn out it's more or less the same price eh.

TomCat

One of the common mistakes I see is that too many things are put into the monitors. Only put in what is necessary and watch the levels.
The primary purpose of the monitor is for a musician to primarily hear themselves with other sources in the background (Especially for vocalists)

What I do as an engineer when someone asks me to turn something up in the monitor mix is to listen on the AFL (After Fader Listen) of that mix to see if there is something masking the source that I was asked to turn up.....I will often then turn the masking sound down which prevents the monitor levels from running away on stage. Another tip is to take all bass frequencies out of the monitor mix and let the mix be more vocal (Mid-range) orientated as it is often low frequencies that muddies everything up. There is more than enough low end bleed coming from the PA to compensate.

Also try to have only one monitor loudspeaker to one performer as often two monitors facing the same performer will create phase cancellations that not only wreck the frequency response in the mid-range, but also dramatically increases feedback.

sharonzaz

every single shure user i know has been cursing the day he got his set.
those all have internal limiters built in that you cannot undo
and they tend to be soft or distort when pushed.

similar is the NEW JTS budget units (around R2k for a set) - STAY AWAY FROM THOSE!

The normal JTS sets are around R5000 retail last i checked (I got 2 sets of those) and those work fantastic!
the phones are decent too.

I've picked up another chinese set, cannot remember the make now, very cheap, paid a grand for them, not nearly as good as the JTS but as long as u dont overdrive the input and put the beltpack's volume louder you get a decent sound.

otherwise, yes, be prepared to spend around the 10k mark or more.

on that note, it is 2012, and those units are really in everyone's reach, and
its time muso's stop wrecking their ears and we should all own (the gigging types) a set.
for under 10k you can buy a good JTS set and get the molds done and that is a set for life.

I used to come home 4-5 times a week with really sore head, ringing ears etc, and had I not used plug i would surely be deaf today, and for a few years now I really
enjoy the gigs so much more being able to hear every note but nice and soft
as i need it to be and i can still hear my own thoughts when I slip into bed...
think about it ?

MIKA-the-better-one

singing in a super loud band I used to struggle for awhile, but things got better with my new band
This new band truthfully is pretty loud, Running a fender bassman and a DR Z carmen ghia pretty much half on the volume is damn loud. Especially with fuzz ontop. Yet every show I have found it easier to sing, and I think its because.....
Good sound guy. Most sound guys I work with now actually know my band and have worked with us before and we get great sound. They dont tell me to tone down because we have all worked out prior how we are setting it up.
I think a lot of what people find is overwhelming stage volume is the wrong EQ and bad tone. Also take note my rig sounds super loud until you put it into context with a drummer and bassist then all of a sudden it fits right in.
Another thing I don't get is when people say they want a drummer to play quieter, that's like asking a Race Car to drive fats but do it quietly. Drummers don't have volume dials, yes some of you will say they can adjust the intensity but what happens if you play in some balls to the wall song with intense drums.

In ears cost a lot, I think they are overrated 90% of the time, unless you are on huge stages. Just practice your Stage sound and work on that.

Psean

TomCat wrote: Another tip is to take all bass frequencies out of the monitor mix and let the mix be more vocal (Mid-range) orientated as it is often low frequencies that muddies everything up. There is more than enough low end bleed coming from the PA to compensate.

Do you cut bass on the vocal mix or the other intruments too? (excuse my ignorance).

TomCat

Psean wrote:
TomCat wrote: Another tip is to take all bass frequencies out of the monitor mix and let the mix be more vocal (Mid-range) orientated as it is often low frequencies that muddies everything up. There is more than enough low end bleed coming from the PA to compensate.
Do you cut bass on the vocal mix or the other intruments too? (excuse my ignorance).

Many modern self-powered loudspeakers have a "Monitor Mode" which essentially does the job of cutting the low end for you. Otherwise have a Graphic on the monitor feed and cut everything below 100Hz out of the mix. Vocal channels usually have a high pass filter in at 80 or 100Hz anyway so the bass cut for vocals is done there. The main culprits are other instruments with low energy such as Keys, Kick and Bass Guitar that causes problems in monitor mixes.

Another frequency area that can cause great havoc in monitor mixes indoors is the 200 to 250 Hz region and a bit of cut there cal also make a huge difference to monitor clarity.

afehrsen

Reviving this because I think there some great IEM's out there that people just don't know about. Due to poor industry management when it comes to importing product - only the "well known" are brought in as it's easier - less work - to promote...

Have a look at Westone's series - I have personally used the UM2's for performance and monitor engineering.
On the higher end there are Ultimate Ears (Now owned by Logitech - don't let that put you off). The older hi.fi series are really great if you can find someone willing to part with them (Overseas sellers are best here - AUS and US) and then there are the pro series. Custom moulded and $$$.

I have used older and newer Shure's and Plantronics and they are also great. Actually looking at a set of Shure SE 425's ?

Hope this helps someone out there!

warrenpridgeon

afehrsen wrote: Reviving this because I think there some great IEM's out there that people just don't know about. Due to poor industry management when it comes to importing product - only the "well known" are brought in as it's easier - less work - to promote...

Have a look at Westone's series - I have personally used the UM2's for performance and monitor engineering.
On the higher end there are Ultimate Ears (Now owned by Logitech - don't let that put you off). The older hi.fi series are really great if you can find someone willing to part with them (Overseas sellers are best here - AUS and US) and then there are the pro series. Custom moulded and $$$.

I have used older and newer Shure's and Plantronics and they are also great. Actually looking at a set of Shure SE 425's ?

Hope this helps someone out there!

We use IEMs cos regular monitoring didn't work in our church... the main campus is a house that has been renovated and extended to be used as a church... so it wasn't built with sound in mind... the other venues we are leasing for the other two campusses also don't work with regular monitoring...

I am using the Shure SE 425's... they are pretty awesome... some of our other guys are using the UM1 and UM2's...

Psean

TomCat wrote: One of the common mistakes I see is that too many things are put into the monitors. Only put in what is necessary and watch the levels.
The primary purpose of the monitor is for a musician to primarily hear themselves with other sources in the background (Especially for vocalists)

Excuse me resurrecting an old one, but I thought It seems appropriate to continue here rather than start a new thread:

Noob question:
My band has recently started gigging, and most of the stages we've played so far have been really tiny with minimal monitoring. The drum kit is usually really close by on the little stages so we hear more than enough of what's going on directly from the kit and there's never been much of a problem. We have an outdoor show coming up and I'm guessing that monitoring will be more of an issue there.

So, speaking of drums specifically and bearing the above in mind, what do you guys suggest having sent to the monitors for the rest of the band (we're a three-piece; drums, bass/vocals, electric guitar)? Will just the kick do? Hat and ride have never been mic'ed at the places we've played anyway (guessing this kinda answers the question...?)

Thanks
Sean

AlanRatcliffe

Psean wrote: So, speaking of drums specifically and bearing the above in mind, what do you guys suggest having sent to the monitors for the rest of the band (we're a three-piece; drums, bass/vocals, electric guitar)? Will just the kick do? Hat and ride have never been mic'ed at the places we've played anyway (guessing this kinda answers the question...?)

Each player decides what's important to them - whatever they need to hear to feel in touch with the other players. It's easy to feel disconnected from the rest of the band on a big stage - first thing you lose is the feel of the bass and kick underfoot which, if you're used to smaller wooden stages, you're probably used to feeling as much as hearing...

Generally as a three piece, you don't have too much clutter to worry about, so it's easy to have a mix that's representative of everyone in the band (but with a simpler drum kit mix) and just levels will change from monitor mix to mix. For instance the bassist is definitely going to want more kick.

Personally I like a fairly full mix in the monitors, but I'm used to having my guitar sound as a small part of the whole mix. Kick, snare and hats are all important parts of the kit to me.

Psean

Great stuff. Thanks Alan. Think I'd like to have more of the timekeepers in the monitors when available. Thanks for clearing that up.