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  • Interesting read: LEs Paul burst 1960 found in South Africa

makepeace wrote: Very interesting story.

Loved this one:
Also location is everything. You ever been to S.Africa? With 45k in CASH??? (in a country/city/culture you effectively know nothing about.) Seriously? I'm not interested in dying over a guitar. Hiring the job out was smart. I just picked the wrong guy.
I will go anywhere in the world for a chance to buy another one. ?

When a burst comes up for air you have to move quickly.
    Vintage Guitar wrote: That's not what I call her.. ?
    Of course not. You probably call her "mine". ?

    As to the whole affair, I must admit in a similar position, I might well be tempted to do the same.

    ...but then again, I'm not a vintage guitar dealer with a rep to protect.
      Vintage Guitar wrote:
      makepeace wrote: Very interesting story.

      Loved this one:
      Also location is everything. You ever been to S.Africa? With 45k in CASH??? (in a country/city/culture you effectively know nothing about.) Seriously? I'm not interested in dying over a guitar. Hiring the job out was smart. I just picked the wrong guy.
      I will go anywhere in the world for a chance to buy another one. ?

      When a burst comes up for air you have to move quickly.
      I only wonder how you explain that to your wife ?

      or maybe you just said that you bought a very cheap les paul epiphone in Joburg ?
        Must confess; and I don't really care, but none of the posts from all three sides in that open debate is 100% objective. And trying to discern the truth or who was right or wrong with all of that nonsense from the peanut gallery jumping at you all the time is near impossible.

        All I can say is that it doesn't matter if its an irreplaceable vintage Gibson or a fizz-pop, morals and integrity should not be compromised. Whoever 'the bad guy' is in that transaction must (even if its really deep down) feel pretty ashamed of himself, and I can only hope that he realizes that its because of people like him that the world is such a stuffed up place most of the time.
          Whoa, amazing thread, just read most of it ??? (skipped a couple of the middle pages that were off topic)

            Just some choice quotes off their forum.
            I hope the guy enjoys THAT burst, because this is a pretty damn small community, and word gets around......
            ^ The guy who posted this is an idiot, as if the over inflated value of this thing is somehow going to lessen because someone got screwed over...Also the hinting that they have some sort of secret society thing going on is pretentious and super lame...
            This is exactly what happens when you try to cut too many $ corners in buying a "thing" as rare, as distant, and as "emotional" as a Burst
            "emotional" I almost fell off my chair laughing at that.
            U guys sound like a bunch of women in a sewing circle...
            That they do...

            I think the whole thing is daft, mainly just cause I'm not nostalgic so the whole rarity thing wouldn't influence my interest in the guitar and the fact that it's old is actually a huge negative in my mind. Why do people seem to go so bonkers over guitars that were made to far lower tolerances than those of today? (Rhetorical)

            It's great that there are so many people who are willing to spend small fortunes on guitars that don't really have any quantifiable advantage over modern guitars, I find it quite annoying that there's an entire guitar playing culture that has developed around the idea that somehow these relic instruments are of a higher tier than the things you can get today...

            TL;DR: I still think the whole vintage thing is stupid, also as is generally my experience these old school "tone afficionados" generally can't play well enough to warrant their opinions, you do get the exception to the norm but often they don't have the skills to back their mouths IMO ?
              Chad Adam Browne wrote: Just some choice quotes off their forum.
              I hope the guy enjoys THAT burst, because this is a pretty damn small community, and word gets around......
              ^ The guy who posted this is an idiot, as if the over inflated value of this thing is somehow going to lessen because someone got screwed over...Also the hinting that they have some sort of secret society thing going on is pretentious and super lame...
              This is exactly what happens when you try to cut too many $ corners in buying a "thing" as rare, as distant, and as "emotional" as a Burst
              "emotional" I almost fell off my chair laughing at that.
              U guys sound like a bunch of women in a sewing circle...
              That they do...

              I think the whole thing is daft, mainly just cause I'm not nostalgic so the whole rarity thing wouldn't influence my interest in the guitar and the fact that it's old is actually a huge negative in my mind. Why do people seem to go so bonkers over guitars that were made to far lower tolerances than those of today? (Rhetorical)

              It's great that there are so many people who are willing to spend small fortunes on guitars that don't really have any quantifiable advantage over modern guitars, I find it quite annoying that there's an entire guitar playing culture that has developed around the idea that somehow these relic instruments are of a higher tier than the things you can get today...

              TL;DR: I still think the whole vintage thing is stupid, also as is generally my experience these old school "tone afficionados" generally can't play well enough to warrant their opinions, you do get the exception to the norm but often they don't have the skills to back their mouths IMO ?
              To be honest I think you miss the point Chad....the out-burst (excuse the pun) is around the alleged "lack of honesty and integrity" of the appointed "agent" from their perspective. The article, or value of such, has nothing to do with the debate.
              Mark Grace responded above with his account of the events and the US guy claims that Grace is misrepresenting the actual facts.
              Sad thing is that Mark Grace has now been put in the spotlight. The mLP forum is a high profile forum in which most of LP collectors world-wide is actively involved in. And these have taken note of this no doubt
                Think Chad's stirring the kettle of fish so to speak.

                But anyway, I don't know if anyone said they were better. They play nicely and they have an inexplicable feeling when you pick them up. Better or higher tiered is a stupid thing because ultimately if two guitars the same, an opinion is the only thing that can make one "better" than the other.
                  whoa...............totally awesome thread.........

                  The thing is, you just KNOW that the guy who wanted to buy it shot out a lowball offer and was thinking at the end of the day he's gonna make a freaking fortune when he sells it on.

                    makepeace wrote: Think Chad's stirring the kettle of fish so to speak.

                    But anyway, I don't know if anyone said they were better. They play nicely and they have an inexplicable feeling when you pick them up. Better or higher tiered is a stupid thing because ultimately if two guitars the same, an opinion is the only thing that can make one "better" than the other.
                    but this is not the point please. ?
                      Vic wrote:
                      Chad Adam Browne wrote: Just some choice quotes off their forum.
                      I hope the guy enjoys THAT burst, because this is a pretty damn small community, and word gets around......
                      ^ The guy who posted this is an idiot, as if the over inflated value of this thing is somehow going to lessen because someone got screwed over...Also the hinting that they have some sort of secret society thing going on is pretentious and super lame...
                      This is exactly what happens when you try to cut too many $ corners in buying a "thing" as rare, as distant, and as "emotional" as a Burst
                      "emotional" I almost fell off my chair laughing at that.
                      U guys sound like a bunch of women in a sewing circle...
                      That they do...

                      I think the whole thing is daft, mainly just cause I'm not nostalgic so the whole rarity thing wouldn't influence my interest in the guitar and the fact that it's old is actually a huge negative in my mind. Why do people seem to go so bonkers over guitars that were made to far lower tolerances than those of today? (Rhetorical)

                      It's great that there are so many people who are willing to spend small fortunes on guitars that don't really have any quantifiable advantage over modern guitars, I find it quite annoying that there's an entire guitar playing culture that has developed around the idea that somehow these relic instruments are of a higher tier than the things you can get today...

                      TL;DR: I still think the whole vintage thing is stupid, also as is generally my experience these old school "tone afficionados" generally can't play well enough to warrant their opinions, you do get the exception to the norm but often they don't have the skills to back their mouths IMO ?
                      To be honest I think you miss the point Chad....the out-burst (excuse the pun) is around the alleged "lack of honesty and integrity" of the appointed "agent" from their perspective. The article, or value of such, has nothing to do with the debate.
                      Mark Grace responded above with his account of the events and the US guy claims that Grace is misrepresenting the actual facts.
                      The two most vital facts, of which I have proof are:

                      1. There was no deal or agreement in place for me to purchase the guitar on behalf of the overseas buyers.
                      2. At the time of purchasing the guitar I had received no contact info. from the overseas buyers.
                        flatfourfan wrote: whoa...............totally awesome thread.........

                        The thing is, you just KNOW that the guy who wanted to buy it shot out a lowball offer and was thinking at the end of the day he's gonna make a freaking fortune when he sells it on.

                        TBH I don't think that really factors in the discussion, regardless of how convincing that one dude on that thread may sound.

                        Ultimately, this is South Africa and that is the USA. I can't see many locals (if any) willing to fork out $100000 for a guitar no matter what the guitar.. We don't really have that kind of culture, and if we do its veeeeery small. If the actual guitar was in the States, that would be a different story. The guy was trying to sell the guitar, offers were made and knowingly of the value of the guitar (or that it was worth more than what was offered) an offer was accepted. Nothing wrong with that as I see it.
                          Chad Adam Browne wrote: Just some choice quotes off their forum.
                          I hope the guy enjoys THAT burst, because this is a pretty damn small community, and word gets around......
                          ^ The guy who posted this is an idiot, as if the over inflated value of this thing is somehow going to lessen because someone got screwed over...Also the hinting that they have some sort of secret society thing going on is pretentious and super lame...
                          It's not that at all. Alan has already alluded to this - in the vintage game your reputation is important.

                          I was talking to Hugh Cumming about this a while back. He has a couple of tales about he had to deliver some rare piece to a collector. You know the whole mythological thing - a first class ticket for Hugh and another for the axe. But this happens. Not every time, but it does.

                          Anyways... I said something like "there's a lot of trust in all of this." He said something like "yes and no. Because in this game your personal reputation is everything, and the market is small, and if you try to pull a fast one then word will get around and your reputation will be shot and you will struggle after that." He went on to explain that this is why you see the adverts for these items with details of all the modifications and defects - repaired head stock crack or whatever. It's also part of being open and trustworthy and above board.

                          Not that I'm saying that Mark Grace tried to con somebody here. There's always at least two sides to a story, and we don't know the whole story. I'm just addressing the issue of the "small community"
                            flatfourfan wrote: whoa...............totally awesome thread.........

                            The thing is, you just KNOW that the guy who wanted to buy it shot out a lowball offer and was thinking at the end of the day he's gonna make a freaking fortune when he sells it on.
                            Sure he was trying to do that. He saw a chance to make a good profit, and if the deal as described had gone through it would have been willing buyer, willing seller. Nothing wrong with that.

                            *IF* he called "Joe Slovo" back and said "I've checked it out and it's not what you think it is and It's not worth what you think it is but I'll take it off your hands for 10k..." IF he did that, THEN that would be questionable.
                              Chad Adam Browne wrote: I think the whole thing is daft, mainly just cause I'm not nostalgic so the whole rarity thing wouldn't influence my interest in the guitar and the fact that it's old is actually a huge negative in my mind. Why do people seem to go so bonkers over guitars that were made to far lower tolerances than those of today? (Rhetorical)

                              It's great that there are so many people who are willing to spend small fortunes on guitars that don't really have any quantifiable advantage over modern guitars, I find it quite annoying that there's an entire guitar playing culture that has developed around the idea that somehow these relic instruments are of a higher tier than the things you can get today...

                              TL;DR: I still think the whole vintage thing is stupid, also as is generally my experience these old school "tone afficionados" generally can't play well enough to warrant their opinions, you do get the exception to the norm but often they don't have the skills to back their mouths IMO ?
                              Well so what? It's not necessarily about the quality of the instrument and the quality of your playing. Rare things always go up in value, because they're rare. And old things hold an attraction for some people. The guy who buys a Maserati 250F isn't going to try to tell anybody that's it's as good as a modern racing car, and he probably can't drive it like Moss or Fangio did. But it's his money and he wants it, so that's OK.

                              I don't accept that the old instruments were necessarily "better". I think for a while the old stuff was better. When Fender got bough by CBS and when Gibson got bought by Norlin quality dropped. So the guitars that were 10 years old (then) were better than the new stuff. But there are superb new guitars available these days, built with a precision and a consistency that wasn't possible back in the "golden age".
                                There are a couple of things here, that to me, do not make much sense. But because this is not a 'hearing", but a discussion, one should rather refrain from asking too many questions :?
                                Bob mentioned the "small community" of vintage dealers as well as the issue of trust....in the antique and fine arts business $100k is small change...even here in SA. However I can assure you that in this small community trust and collegiality is everything.....if you screw a fellow dealer albeit a local or overseas colleague,by underhandedly invading his turf so to speak, and undermining their code of conduct, your days in this business will be numbered.
                                  If this guitar is as rare as stated it will be purchased, regardless of seller ? Though I don't doubt reputation may help move it faster, possibly even for a higher price, the quote was insuniating that guitar would now be black listed and therefore never purchased - it's this that I find stupid ?

                                  Ultimately I think the guy who didn't get the guitar in the end got what he deserved, or rather not, however you want to look at it, based solely off of his close minded bigoted opinion about how dangerous our country is...
                                  X-rated Bob wrote: Well so what? It's not necessarily about the quality of the instrument and the quality of your playing. Rare things always go up in value, because they're rare. And old things hold an attraction for some people. The guy who buys a Maserati 250F isn't going to try to tell anybody that's it's as good as a modern racing car, and he probably can't drive it like Moss or Fangio did. But it's his money and he wants it, so that's OK.
                                  This I completely agree with, but far too often people tend to go off on the mystique aspect of it ? If it's just because they can then more power to them.
                                    i have nothing constructuve to add to this thread except to say i bet i can play my Tokai LP far better than this "find" from before i was born....paying this kind of money for a guitar is madness imho.

                                    and the old adage applies, trust no one ?
                                      If this guitar was purchased for under $45k and is now available at $200k - $260k (as stated in the original thread), I believe the person who got screwed the most by far is the original seller... If these figures are correct, to me it borders on theft...