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  • Interesting read: LEs Paul burst 1960 found in South Africa

Hi guys

Interesting link regarding a Les Paul burst 1960, found in South Africa....

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178642



More pictures there, but it looks the original owner put those horrible Ibanez seventies tuners on it LOL

The most amazing thing to for me is that you can still find these are in South Africa, next to a lot of other great gear. And since we are far away from everywhere, there is still a lot of good stuff under the South African bed ?)

    Ahh the infamous 'disgrace' burst ?
      i have been to someones house before, about 14 highly collectable vintage guitars under the bed ?
        kapepper wrote: The most amazing thing to for me is that you can still find these are in South Africa, next to a lot of other great gear. And since we are far away from everywhere, there is still a lot of good stuff under the South African bed ?)
        There's two 1960 sunbursts at Hugh's Fine Guitars right now. And an older gold top.

        There's been a few of the rare Gibson Mastertone banjos turn up in SA as well.

        I don't want to say that there's a lot of these goodies, but there are some. Somebody went through some documents at the Gibson factory and figured out how many Mastertones were shipped to SA, then ticked off all those that are accounted for. There should still be a couple more of those around, but there's no way of knowing if they've been destroyed or too heavily modified. But various ears are kept to the ground.
          Here's the details.
          I was contacted by Braam Van Der Westhuizen, he lived in S.Africa, and his friend Joe Slovo (3 Klerksdorp, South Africa) had the guitar. They contacted me originally asking $100k. Just on a hipshot, after seeing the glued-on "gibson" logo (and knowing he was in S.Africa), i offered him $45k. I knew damn well he wouldn't accept that offer, but he did!

          At this point i was like, "damn i can't believe i'm buying this guitar." Braam offered to meet at Tambo Airport Johannesburg, but I wasn't so keen on doing that. In hind sight, that's exactly what I should have done.

          Instead i contacted a friend that does a lot of guitar buying in S.Africa. He recommended a guy named Mark Grace, who sells vintage guitars in S.Africa. My friend felt that Mark Grace was trustworth and knew guitars, so it seemed like a good fit, as my friend had bought from MG many times before. Mark Grace agreed to get the guitar and bring it to the Dallas guitar show (which he was thinking about attending) for $5000. Ok seems reasonable. Again we tried to wire him the money but he insisted on first "checking out the guitar to make sure it was real." That should have been my big clue, him not wanting to accept the wire transfer. We emailed MG the contact info for Joe/Braam.

          So of course Mark Grace went and checked out the guitar, and then proceeded to buy it from Joe/Braam. At this point there was nothing I could do, i was screwed. We tried to get Mark Grace to "do the right thing", but he stopped answering the phone/emails. In the end, i didn't even get a "thank you", much less the guitar. We even tried to contact Mark Grace's dad (who also deals in vintage guitars), and he wouldn't help either.

          (original emails available if there's any doubt.)
          I am going to try and keep this simple..

          Firstly, Braam/Joe Slovo were not the owners of the Burst.
          Secondly, I (Mark Grace) was offered $3000 to secure a guitar by a dealer in the USA which I refused as it would not cover my expenses.
          Thirdly, I was already the new owner of the Burst by the time I received any contact info. from the dealer in the US.
          The deal was done with me. I can send you the emails. The day I got the contact info from Braam/Joe, that info was sent to my friend, and then sent to Mark Grace. Mark contacted my friend, stated that week he was going to "examine" the guitar, which he did (he actually bought it.) Then Mark Grace decide to stop communication with us, and well, you know the rest of the story.

          So sorry, i don't believe the "Fred" story. He's trying to manipulate the facts to somehow convince himself (and others) that what was done was "right." It's not right, and he knows it.

          Again if any one wants any of the emails sent between myself and Braam/Joe, i would be happy to provide them (or even post them here, with exact email addresses, if that is needed.)

          On the $5000 arrival fee, I was going through a friend, so perhaps the $5000 was being padded a bit by him (not unreasonable, given that i really didn't want to go to S.Africa, and i did not know Mark Grace.) The $5000 also included getting the guitar to me (I wasn't going to Dallas, my friend was, and there were obviously transportation fees involved with that.) He would also "authenticate" the guitar there at Dallas. So I would expect he had some costs and profits involved in the transaction.

          On the price of the guitar, realistically, it's a $100k burst. My cost up front would be $50k (including all transportation fees), or 50%. I don't see that as unreasonable. Also the owner knew it was a $100k guitar, as that's what he was asking originally. I made an offer, and he accepted (he didn't have to accept the offer.)
            And some more relevant info on this crazy deal:


            Wow rather read the thread - so much info...
              Protip: you have a good deal on a 'burst - you go get that sucker. Don't even ask your brother to pick it up for you ?
                nick wrote: Ahh the infamous 'disgrace' burst ?
                Excellent! ?
                  nick wrote: Ahh the infamous 'disgrace' burst ?
                  That's not what I call her.. ?
                    Hmmm... what happened to that big ass Gibson logo that was glued to the top?
                    they mention somewhere in the thread that it was removed
                    EDIT: dont know how true that is ?
                      Vintage Guitar wrote:
                      nick wrote: Ahh the infamous 'disgrace' burst ?
                      That's not what I call her.. ?
                      So Mark, any chance of giving us the skinny on what actually happened here? I remember reading that thread at the time and wondering what had happened. To be honest, I'm glad that guitar hasn't left our shores, and I don't know what your intentions are with it, but I hope it stays here. I sleep better at night knowing there is a 1960 Burst less than 5km from me! ?

                      Also, if you come across any old Marshall kit like old cabs, heads etc that aren't in a condition you're interested in, please let me know. I had quite a bit of fun restoring an old 4x12 that another forumer got from you, and that I ended up with in a trade.

                      I'm just up the road from you, in Hillcrest.
                        Manfred Klose wrote:
                        Hmmm... what happened to that big ass Gibson logo that was glued to the top?
                        they mention somewhere in the thread that it was removed
                        EDIT: dont know how true that is ?
                        The logo came off easily, I slid a business card under the logo and in a matter of minutes it popped right off.
                        The original owner used the logo off his Gibson GA40 amp. ?

                          i dont know much about the value of vintage gibsons, but can someone please clarify why this guitar is worth so much ?
                            shaunf wrote:
                            Vintage Guitar wrote:
                            nick wrote: Ahh the infamous 'disgrace' burst ?
                            That's not what I call her.. ?
                            So Mark, any chance of giving us the skinny on what actually happened here? I remember reading that thread at the time and wondering what had happened. To be honest, I'm glad that guitar hasn't left our shores, and I don't know what your intentions are with it, but I hope it stays here. I sleep better at night knowing there is a 1960 Burst less than 5km from me! ?

                            Also, if you come across any old Marshall kit like old cabs, heads etc that aren't in a condition you're interested in, please let me know. I had quite a bit of fun restoring an old 4x12 that another forumer got from you, and that I ended up with in a trade.

                            I'm just up the road from you, in Hillcrest.
                            Well, I think it is also a good case that the Guitar stayed here in South Africa and not to a US dealer...

                            I also wonder, if the US guy was thinking if those guys in Africa are stupid....
                            You give a south african guy (who happens to be very knowledgeable about the issue) 5k to pick up one of the most sought after guitars for a real bargain price. Hold on to the guitar and bring it to the US and give it to the US guy who will probably sell the guitar asap for double or triple money....

                            I only wonder what would have happened if Graceland guitars had done this and
                            - the guitar would have been stolen afterwards
                            - or was already stolen before... you know what have happened to me and the Jazz bass
                            - was not as original and worth that money
                            - was damaged during transport
                            - was a complete scam
                            - etcetera

                            The US buyer is just kicking himself for not being more pragmatic and just travelled to South Africa
                              Manfred Klose wrote: i dont know much about the value of vintage gibsons, but can someone please clarify why this guitar is worth so much ?
                              It's rarity value. Gibson only made 1700 LP standards before canning the LP range in 1961. Of those, not all were sunbursts. Of those that are sunbursts, not all have attractive figuring in the maple cap.

                              And, of course, not all of those 1700 have survived (or at least they haven't all been found). So they have a non-trivial rarity value.
                                kapepper wrote: Well, I think it is also a good case that the Guitar stayed here in South Africa and not to a US dealer...
                                Well I don't know why it should be a good thing, and realistically it's going to end up overseas at some point. The market is too small here, and you won't get full value for such an instrument. SA is a good place for BUYING these instruments, but not for selling them. To realise the full value of that guitar it will have to be sold overseas.

                                There are at least three 1960 LP standards in SA right now. So you can shop around ?
                                  Very interesting story.

                                  Loved this one:
                                  Also location is everything. You ever been to S.Africa? With 45k in CASH??? (in a country/city/culture you effectively know nothing about.) Seriously? I'm not interested in dying over a guitar. Hiring the job out was smart. I just picked the wrong guy.
                                    shaunf wrote:
                                    Vintage Guitar wrote:
                                    nick wrote: Ahh the infamous 'disgrace' burst ?
                                    That's not what I call her.. ?
                                    So Mark, any chance of giving us the skinny on what actually happened here? I remember reading that thread at the time and wondering what had happened. To be honest, I'm glad that guitar hasn't left our shores, and I don't know what your intentions are with it, but I hope it stays here. I sleep better at night knowing there is a 1960 Burst less than 5km from me! ?

                                    Also, if you come across any old Marshall kit like old cabs, heads etc that aren't in a condition you're interested in, please let me know. I had quite a bit of fun restoring an old 4x12 that another forumer got from you, and that I ended up with in a trade.

                                    I'm just up the road from you, in Hillcrest.
                                    Hey Shaun, I got your number. We should meet up and I will give you the lowdown and talk vintage gear.