Look no further than Tokai ..... no need to ..excellent quality at a good price.... an no need to ever spend more money on...

FRALIN FAN wrote: SO I have a VOX SCC-55, and a USA Strat and I am now looking for a Humbucker git in the LP mould.

Well if you got a Strat, or a good copy thereof, in HH or HSS configuration then you'll get a guitar with a humbucker sound that feels similar to what you already have.

Failing that Ibanez, Carparelli, Yamaha... loads of options, and don't turn your nose up at 2nd hand instruments. You can get more guitaring bang per buck that way.

single or double cut LP?

Ibanez AR 3000 prestige

I second the Carparelli idea
fantastic build quality lovely sound and the look fantastic

You can't go wrong with a Tokai and if you are lucky to get one used than you will have some change left as well from you budget.

@ FFF

That Ibanez AR 3000 Prestige is a seriously good looking guitar. My brother scored an old Ibanez Artist years ago that had a similar look.
That is completely gassable

FRALIN FAN wrote: SO I have a VOX SCC-55, and a USA Strat and I am now looking for a Humbucker git in the LP mould. HEard too many stories about Gibson quality and I am wondering what would alternatives I have?

I've heard loads of stories too. I also own 2 Gibson Les Pauls and have a well known music store less than 1 km from my house that is full of new Gibsons at the moment, and they have a mix of entry level USA models, all the way up to some very nice Custom Shop models. Having had plenty of time over the last few months to look at all their guitars, as well as having a rather critical eye for detail, I am yet to see where all these "quality issues" stories come from. Maybe there was a problem at one stage, I don't know, but there sure as hell isn't anything wrong with the 20-30 new Gibsons I've looked at in this particular shop. Sure, I may not like some of the new features and specifications that some of the new models have brought in, but I haven't seen any quality issues that would have meant I wouldn't have bought any of these guitars if I was in the market for one.

Besides, if you don't like the new stuff, Les Paul's often come up secondhand on Gumtree and your budget will happily buy you a secondhand LP Standard.

My advice: If you want a Les Paul, then buy a Les Paul. If you want a copy of a Les Paul, then buy a copy. Note: I'm not saying that one is necessarily better than the other. It simply comes down to personal preference. What I am saying though, is don't base your decision on "stories". Hell, if I had taken to heart all the anti-Gibson propaganda that exists just on this one forum, I would have expected to be repulsed at the sight of a new Gibson the way some people carry on.

Bottom line, go and look for yourself and make an educated decision.

R15k puts you in the range of the 'Premium Series' Tokais. These are high end Tokais and specwise on par with the R8/R9 Custom Shop Gibsons. Singemonkey has one and thats the best LP I've ever played.

Shaun is absolutely right. Yes you pay a premium for Gibsons in this country, but most of the time folks seem to have "issues" with them, they're completely unsubstantiated and biased.

Go to a nice big music store, play all the LPs you can so YOU can make an informed decision ?

Well man, your store must stock a whole different batch to mine. The wall of Gibsons I checked out, all besides the custom shop reissues had poorly finished fretboards rife with tool-marks (and that's not an off-the-cuff exaggeration). The 335s and 339s had this weird thing where the neck end of the pickguards were screwed down so tight they actually warped at that end.

I'm not saying these were bad guitars, because I didn't play them. I'm sure most if not all were great players. But signs of poor quality control were very evident. Another forum member was able to show the shop guy that on an LP he played, every single knob had been arbitrarily put on so they indicated different settings when up full (yes I know, but it's further evidence of the throw-them-together-and-toss-them-in-a-box approach to QC in Nashville).

Only the R7 Goldtop and the R0 flame top (respectively something like R35K and R50K on the sticker) looked like they'd been finished off with the attention to detail you expect in a high end guitar. I'm going to the store today, so I'll check again whether my eyes were deceiving me, or whether it was just a bad batch.

I'd say if you go for Gibson, and you can't afford a custom shop model, it's preferable to go for one made before 2000 when these QC issues were not so common.

Singe, mind taking a camera with and grabbing some pics for the forum? I'm not doubting you at all, but there's no subjectivity to photos ?

WEll on the jap made Tokais there aint ever been rumours about quality , each is quality right off the peg .... just saying....

MikeM wrote: Singe, mind taking a camera with and grabbing some pics for the forum? I'm not doubting you at all, but there's no subjectivity to photos ?

Dude, I would love to. But I don't think the store would love me to - especially if I'm exposing flaws in their flagship product and posting them on the interwebz. And a cell phone camera, hand-held in low light, is not going to show finishing flaws besides things like paint on binding and that kinda thing. Maybe some time one of the Gibson QC defenders should go to the store with me and EZ and see if we can come to a consensus on what we're looking at.

MikeM wrote: Singe, mind taking a camera with and grabbing some pics for the forum? I'm not doubting you at all, but there's no subjectivity to photos ?

That would be great if you could do that, Singe.

singemonkey wrote: Well man, your store must stock a whole different batch to mine. The wall of Gibsons I checked out, all besides the custom shop reissues had poorly finished fretboards rife with tool-marks (and that's not an off-the-cuff exaggeration). The 335s and 339s had this weird thing where the neck end of the pickguards were screwed down so tight they actually warped at that end.

I'm not saying these were bad guitars, because I didn't play them. I'm sure most if not all were great players. But signs of poor quality control were very evident. Another forum member was able to show the shop guy that on an LP he played, every single knob had been arbitrarily put on so they indicated different settings when up full (yes I know, but it's further evidence of the throw-them-together-and-toss-them-in-a-box approach to QC in Nashville).

Only the R7 Goldtop and the R0 flame top (respectively something like R35K and R50K on the sticker) looked like they'd been finished off with the attention to detail you expect in a high end guitar. I'm going to the store today, so I'll check again whether my eyes were deceiving me, or whether it was just a bad batch.

I'd say if you go for Gibson, and you can't afford a custom shop model, it's preferable to go for one made before 2000 when these QC issues were not so common.

It's quite possible it's a different batch. They got their stock in last Sept/Oct if I remember correctly. I know they've got another big order on the way soon, so it will be interesting to see what the new lot look like when they arrive.

By the way, are you serious about the knob issue? I take the knobs off my guitars every time I want to give them a good clean or polish. Perhaps someone from the shop did the same and put them back in a hurry ?

shaunf wrote: By the way, are you serious about the knob issue? I take the knobs off my guitars every time I want to give them a good clean or polish. Perhaps someone from the shop did the same and put them back in a hurry ?

Serious. And the sales guy certainly didn't know about it and couldn't explain it. But I suppose it's possible - although there's not much need to remove them from a new guitar.

shaunf wrote:

singemonkey wrote: Well man, your store must stock a whole different batch to mine. The wall of Gibsons I checked out, all besides the custom shop reissues had poorly finished fretboards rife with tool-marks (and that's not an off-the-cuff exaggeration). The 335s and 339s had this weird thing where the neck end of the pickguards were screwed down so tight they actually warped at that end.

I'm not saying these were bad guitars, because I didn't play them. I'm sure most if not all were great players. But signs of poor quality control were very evident. Another forum member was able to show the shop guy that on an LP he played, every single knob had been arbitrarily put on so they indicated different settings when up full (yes I know, but it's further evidence of the throw-them-together-and-toss-them-in-a-box approach to QC in Nashville).

Only the R7 Goldtop and the R0 flame top (respectively something like R35K and R50K on the sticker) looked like they'd been finished off with the attention to detail you expect in a high end guitar. I'm going to the store today, so I'll check again whether my eyes were deceiving me, or whether it was just a bad batch.

I'd say if you go for Gibson, and you can't afford a custom shop model, it's preferable to go for one made before 2000 when these QC issues were not so common.

It's quite possible it's a different batch. They got their stock in last Sept/Oct if I remember correctly. I know they've got another big order on the way soon, so it will be interesting to see what the new lot look like when they arrive.

By the way, are you serious about the knob issue? I take the knobs off my guitars every time I want to give them a good clean or polish. Perhaps someone from the shop did the same and put them back in a hurry ?

That forum member was me. I played one of their Goldtop LP standards (2011 I guess). The two salesmen were telling me about the 26 step QC system Gibson has and how great it is. They were utterly surprised when I showed them the randomized knobs. The guitar in question played and sounded great otherwise. The knobs was also the only real issue I saw with that one (Well that and it weighs like 5 grams). I think Singemonkey is correct in suggesting that these guitars are probably good players but for the money they go for new, any little flaw becomes very noticable. See if you can find tooling marks or paint on frets or skew knobs on a >R20k PRS. I'll bet you won't.

I've stayed out of this whole ongoing Gibson quality spat because I never had any info on the matter (first-hand info) until recently.

When I bought my new amp last month, I was at MM in Woodmead and testing various amps in their sound room full of Gibson guitars. I plugged in a Tobacco Burst LP, just for kicks, and I loved the tone. However, on close inspection I wasn't that impressed with the way the guitar had been finished. The fretboard binding was uneven and skew after the body join, there was a lot of "bleed" (or whatever you call it) of paint around the binding on the rest of the body etc. The guitar still sounded great, but it would certainly put me off spending R20k on that guitar. I checked out the other LP traditional and was not satisfied with that one either. My R15k Strat, from the same store, is flawless by comparison.

Similar to what Singed was saying, the higher end stuff seemed better: the LP customs were really great, but cost considerably more as well. Aub's LP Custom is the nicest LP I've ever played, and overall one of the nicest guitars I've played in general, so there's no doubt Gibson do still make good stuff, you just need to hunt around a bit and find yourself a good one. In any case for your R15k I think you'll struggle to get a new Gibson LP, unless you go for a Studio model.

The Tokais at TOMS, on the other hand, are consistently gorgeously built and finished, and they cost a lot less. Some of those tops alone are just beautiful. That said, R15k is still a lot of money, and you need to make a call about whether you want to spend that sort of money on a straight up copy of a Gibson. I personally quite like the idea of an LP style guitar that's not a direct Gibson LP copy, but there's no arguing that the Tokais are very well made and sound awesome. Only you can make that choice for yourself.

TL;DR - don't write off Gibsons just because of the stories others have told. Go and check them out for yourself, particularly keep an eye on the second-hand market. A good used Gibson LP around that price range would be first prize IMO. If you're looking new, the Tokais are very hard to beat. Non SE PRS guitars are probably out of that price range.

OK. Enough Gibson-bashing for now - T & G Fans, please just accept that you won't change each other's minds and move on with your lives. Gibson QC has improved, but it's still not perfect judging from the examples I have seen recently (but no brand is). And the Gibson LPs are still a better investment in the long run.

However, with that budget and an LP-Style guitar in mind, I have to second the earlier recommendation of the Tokai LS160. Classic 50's style LP, flawless quality and well-priced. Won't hold it's value as well as a Gibson Standard (and yes, that might change...).

The Ibanez Artist is a worthy contender, but there have been a lot of different models in recent years and not all would appeal to the same players. The AR3000 Prestige specifically is a bit OTT for me with the gold and that top.

Another double-cut to look at is the Yamaha SG2000 (if you can find one).