Live acoustic guitar sound

karoo

HI guys

I've decided that its seriously time to start gigging again. I did quite a lot few years ago but then studies started getting hectic. Despite the fact that I'm struggling to get a gig anywhere in Potch, I would like to ask a question regarding live acoustic guitar sound. I have a pretty decent acoustic (takamine tf241dlx) with the cool tube preamp. But plugged directly into the PA system it still sounds like a tin can when compared to the natural sound. Now I know that if I use the pickup system it'll never sound EXACTLY the same as the natural sound, but still the sound needs to improve. What gear (eg. DI boxes etc) should I be looking at to improve the sound of the acoustic guitar? Sorry if this seems like a novice question...

Thanks in advance

Bob-Dubery

You should be getting a decent sound out of that guitar with those electronics. It may need some EQ on the desk.

How old is the battery?

Have you had any work done on that guitar, especially to the saddle or bridge? A cheap or poorly cut saddle can compromise the performance of an under saddle transducer.

If you feel the need for something extra in the signal chain then look at LR Baggs kit. The para-di is a good piece of kit.

Are you using pedals with the guitar? If you're plugging into the PA and you're using true bypass pedals you may be getting an impedance mismatch with the pedal engaged.

Check your leads.

TomCat

+1 on having the under saddle checked....that can have a huge influence on the tone of the output when connected to a PA.

Bob-Dubery

TomCat wrote: +1 on having the under saddle checked....that can have a huge influence on the tone of the output when connected to a PA.

Not just the fit, but the material. Some materials interface better with the UST and more consistently. Even bone has it's downsides here because it can be inconsistent internally and thus not provide an efficient or consistent transfer of string energy to transducer.

Squonk

Hi Karoo

Your Takamine should sound pretty good through a PA

I have a Takamine FP325SRCA which was close to the top of range circa 1992. I have played at a couple of open mic's and a lot of people have commented on the good Tone(No tin can stuff)

Maybe have it checked out, I have heard a couple of the cool tube preamps and they sound pretty decent straight into the PA.

karoo

HI guys

Thanks for the replies. The guitar is stock, so no work has been done on it. I'll definitely change the batteries more often. I don't use any other pedals with the guitar. The preamp is very powerful but I think that my main problem is that I want the guitar to sound like it sound when playing unplugged. What difference will the DI make regarding sound. And also, any tips on EQ?

Bob-Dubery

karoo wrote: What difference will the DI make regarding sound. And also, any tips on EQ?

If the thin sound is attributable to an impedance mismatch or having to push an unbalanced signal over a long cable then the DI box provides buffering that helps that.

The Baggs box that is being talked about, the para-DI, does more than just DI. It gives an effects loop, it puts the EQ on your box where you can take control of it, it provides a notch filter for dialling out feedback. There's a new version that includes a tuner and a "solo" feature that gives you a few db boost at a foot button push. The original para-DI is also built like a tank.

It's like any piece of kit - you have to figure out how to use it. The guys I've seen playing live who have this sort of box and have taken the time to figure it out have an easy life. They give the sound guy the output from the para-DI and it's basically up to him to screw it up. If you're in full control of everything then it probably won't help much, but if you're not, or not always, then it helps.

karoo

ok cool.
I think I'll start playing with the EQ the on the PA at home and see if I can sort it out. But I'll be on the lookout for a secondhand DI. Thanks a stack.

AlanRatcliffe

+1 on the Para-DIs. They just work. Well. ?

But understand that no undersaddle will give you the same sound as the unplugged guitar aside from the Fishman Aura Imaging. That's just the way it is...

EQing, the first thing is to make sure you are not over EQing at the guitar - the notches are there for a reason. Start at the notch and centre your adjustment around it for the most natural effect. Same goes for any EQ further down the chain.

Sebber

Count mine another vote for the LR Baggs Para-Acoustic DI, I've had one for a few years and it's a great piece of kit.

karoo wrote: I want the guitar to sound like it sound when playing unplugged.

To be honest if you're questing for the unplugged tone of your acoustic you're going to have to mic it up: no piezo or magnetic acoustic guitar pickup is going to give you that unplugged tone unless you've got some decent effects/modelling going on. I've tried some good acoustic guitar amplifiers over the years, some of them can work wonders for a piezo or magnetic equipped acoustic guitar, but give you that unadulterated unplugged tone? Nope, only way I know for that is to mic up.

Fingerpicker

Can you explain the tin can sound? Boxy, boomy, crackly, intermittent or other.

You haven't mentioned anything about the PA type or age, and cables (age, condition, length, connector condition, joints etc)

I also use the Para DI every now and then, but it can't make a crap signal good. It's used for boosting or attenuating the various frequencies and making the guitar sound better in whichever acoustic environment it finds itself. Notching out feedback and converting unbalanced to balanced signals are other functions as mentioned above. If the tin can effect is due to a problem within a small frequency range, you can notch it out, but don't overdo the attenuation as you may lose a chunk of sound.

Mic'd guitar - IMHO it's okay to use a a mic on a guitar in an intimate environment to raise the ambience. It's a real pain in the ass in the club environment where there is more than two guitars playing and you need a bit of volume. Gain is high and you are constantly on the lookout for pre-feedback ring. Give me a pick up signal that I can work with. But then I'm also the type that would put a sports exhaust on a car....

Airguitar

I play the Takamine TAN15C which uses the same Cooltube preamp, and in my experience:-

The cooltube knob should be around 12 o'clock when playing with a plectrum, otherwise the sound is too trebly. when fingerpicking.
I set it at about 2 o'clock to get a nice intimate tone.

In BOTH instances, I find I have to tame the treble control below the notch, and boost the bass slightly, leaving the mid, well, in the middle.

The tone is KILLER in this setting, and I find I need only make small changes between PA and acoustic amp.

Hope it helps you..

Nitebob

While we are on the subject of acoustic sound...Anybody tried the "Planet waves O port"? They are talking about amazing sound improvements, but quite possibly sales talk, otherwise everybody would have one...opinions?

http://www.planetwaves.com/PWOport.Page?sid=14a03162-a86e-4a49-b7cc-460ad2f0fecc

Conrad

I also owned a Takamine and had a cooltube pickup installed and yes the sound was NOT natural, just somewhat fatter than the stock piezo (undersaddle)

You should really be looking into using a dual source pickup (Condenser mic and piezo) or an external condenser mic if you want a natural sound.

Only piezo sounds tinny and quacky which you probably hate.

L.R. Baggs makes wonderful dual sources for about R2k.

Nitebob

Nitebob wrote: While we are on the subject of acoustic sound...Anybody tried the "Planet waves O port"? They are talking about amazing sound improvements, but quite possibly sales talk, otherwise everybody would have one...opinions?

http://www.planetwaves.com/PWOport.Page?sid=14a03162-a86e-4a49-b7cc-460ad2f0fecc

Just a BUMP to see if anyone tried this and missed the post....