Grant-Tregellas
Gee...didn't expect that glowing testimonial...thanks K.
Can I do an internet transfer for the cash though? ?
You win a free CD!
Happy to answer questions here (if i can), got a bit carried away with that "modes" post,
its just the obsessive compulsive disorder kicking in at 2am...
Thanks again
[deleted]
I'm apologising in advance for this little rant. I've alluded to this in another post, but I feel compelled to bring this up again.
I had a brief stint of trying to teach someone guitar, man oh man, bad idea. I don't know if he was just scared of looking stupid or if kids are just like that, but when I explained something to him he'd just agree with me. Suprisingly he continued to look confused for the majority of the time. And then I got down to the nitty gritty, and asked him to just find the same note I was playing and play it on his guitar, possibly the simplist thing to do in music, after banging out a rhythm, which can be surprisingly hard for some people, but....No luck, turns out, you really DO need to understand things aurally. And if just discovering the same note is hard, then hell, you are not going to understand a major or minor third. Similarly, if you can't sing the tonic sol-fa, then you won't be able to move on. The thing is, instead of accpeting that the level he was at was trying to figure out the note I was playing and working on that, he thought that "understanding" more "theory" was going to help him. And then we were at the start again.
I think I've almost said enough, sorry to kind of go off the topic. To me music like a magic you need to discover to be able to know it and it's irrelevant if other people have discoverd it already, that's why I like it. It's not like in school where people know things and tell you about it so that you can know it too. Basically, just make your own secret handshake.
Renesongs
@ Viccy - I've long given up trying to teach people what I know. I try and find out what they know and help them rearrange it so it looks similar to what I know. Many a time I am the one that learns more.
[deleted]
Many a time I am the one that learns more
That's when you know you're a good teacher.
What bugged me about this experience was that he wasn't being honest about what he understood, which made it hard for me to get a footing.
Good advice never the less: If you want advice on something, first go over what you already know (really really know).
Grant-Tregellas
Fair enough.
If someone is at the level that they have no sense of pitch yet, then yes or course, music theory
is hardly the way to motivate someone to learn an instrument.
My reply was to a question relating to music theory, so I'm assuming that person has a reasonable aural ability. ?
In my defense of music theory:
You don't learn music theory, you ABSORB music theory. Sounds abstract,
but like a language, after spending time (a lot) dealing with the conscious mind
understanding of theory, it eventually just becomes part of what you do.
I never think about what I am doing when I play onstage, its all now part of some
sort of "background process".
Could I have picked this up just by ear? Possibly, but I always felt that the more
you know the more options you have.
And truth be told, having an understanding of music theory has helped my through
many a session before.
I've seen a lot of musicians who prefer not to study their instrument go completely blank
in the studio when the "singer" decides to transpose the track down to Gb!
They never get re-hired.
Having said that, I've also met many incredibly talented players who know no theory whatsoever, but
make up for it with an amazing ear.
There is an article on bassist John Pattitucci's website that addresses this whole argument of theory vs feel.
In in he names some pretty big names in the world of Jazz who are noted for their expressive playing, yet
hold masters degrees in music.
I'm not here to slam those who are anti-music theory, I prefer to encourage people to learn more about
the craft of music, to learn the skills that help you out when "inspiration" is unavailable.
Keira-WitherKay
as a music tutor...... i think it's my job to inspire my students to want to learn more......... i kinda tease them with showing them a hint of theory that makes something which they been struggling over become clear......... then they usually want to learn more by themselves....... cos i teach mostly adults who want to get better and have some drive to achieve this...........but i agree one should not just pile on the theory as one would algebra homework....... but rather show the student how knowing just a bit of theory can make the playing side of the process so easy .......
i have found many tutors assume a student has a grasp of the basics.... like major scales /keys and where the notes are on the fretboard and skip to what we consider to be the more interesting theory ...........say chord substitution ...cos i find many students who come to me can play well, but don't understand the basics of how keys works or even finding the notes on individual strings....... or chord construction.cos everything they learn they learn in "parrot fashion" ( they see a chord learn the shape .but don't ask em to find the III note in the chord or ask em what chord in the key is it ? but they know the chord shape and use it ...be it a jazz chord...........
so thats what we need to fight against as music tutors........ trying to get students to understand what they playing rather than just play shapes they know ............
but we all know..... that look in a students eye when the "penny drops" and they have the lightbulb moment when they actually see what the theory does......... that moment is worth the effort of teaching . thats the prime reward for any tutor.......... being able to pass on the knowledge that someone passed on to me.........
[deleted]
i think it's my job to inspire my students to want to learn more.........
That's where my problem was, I assumed the inspiration was already there. Also I think if it's an adult who's paying for the time they'll put a bit more effort in. Generally I just can't help myself though, if I'm asked a question I'll try my best to explain it, without foresight into if the kid is really that interrested.
I think the modal explanation was great and really I don't think you could do better. Some one else on a previous thread said that singing the modes helped, and that's the way I learn things best. Like when a child learns a new language they make random noises using the basic mouth shapes of the language and that way get used to the feeling of talking, that's how I see learning a new mode. One part theory one part feel.
Wizard
Viccy wrote
... Some one else on a previous thread said that singing the modes helped, and that's the way I learn things best
If you can say it, you can play it ...
?
Renesongs
i think it's my job to inspire my students to want to learn more...
+1 Keira you are a born teacher.
In my defense of music theory:
I haven't met a musician yet that hasn't been better off for having learned a little theory. Yet you get some that think that formalising what they know will destroy it's magic. To me music theory eliminates the need for guess work or "lucky breaks".
Wizard
I haven't memorised the notes on the fretboard yet, so trying out this theory on guitar takes up more of my time in note finding than it does in "sensing" the sounds.
But we have a piano ... I can't play it, but do know where all the notes are.
I composed a little jingle in C major (white notes starting at C).
Then had fun playing the same jingle by just shifting right one note; and staying on the white notes.
i.e. shifting to the next "mode".
Kept on going ... trying out all of the modes.
Very easy way to "feel" what the different modes sound like.
While I was at it; played around with chords as per the notes here ... by stacking 3rds ... then making it minor etc.
I found this keyboard method useful as a quick and easy way to hear and feel these things.
Maybe it will work for others.
Renesongs
+1 wizard - I sometimes use the piano to "show" students how harmony works.
MikeM
Thanks for the post Grant.
Now I learnt something new about the 7ths, that was interesting, but I still don't understand this
Going back to the 1-4-5 (C, F, G). I'm still on the phase of, C ionian, F lydian and G mixolydian is still just a C major scale with different roots?
But then BAM bomb comes about using those 3 modes all in C.. How does that work? I'm really battling with this part ? Surely that'd not work over F and G? I.e C Lydian - sharp 4th which makes F become F# doesn't feel right over the IV?
ARG I've been stuck on this part for a few weeks now ☹
Renesongs
Your first approach is correct for staying in one key. The second approach playing different modes on the same root will change your key viz. C Ionian = key of C , C lydian = key of G and C Mixolydian is key of F. I can only imagine doing this if you are playing a song the changes key in cycles of 5 while keeping the your solo in the same position on the neck viz 6 - 10 the fret.
This technique works well for wind and keyboard instruments but IMO is counter intuitive for guitar because we have the advantage of being able to change key by moving our fret position and keeping the same scale pattern.
I'll try to break this down to its simplest element where a mode is a scale pattern:
Change Mode + Change position = Same key*
Change Mode + Same position = Change key
Same Mode + Change position = Change key
Same Mode + Same Position = Same Key
* provided that your position is appropriate for the mode
MikeM
Thanks Rene.. I'm fine with sticking in one key. Basically looking at simple rock writing atm.
But now what's the whole deal with modes then? I still see it in the naive way of the C major scale, while just using different roots...
Wizard
A scale is simply a set of notes used for composition; where each note in the scale can be described by the number of semitones from the root.
In a C major scale, the intervals from the root, in semi-tones, are:
0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12
If you constructed a scale with the C major notes, but with a root at D, you get a different scale; with different intervals: (Dorian)
0, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12
A scale starting at E would give intervals of: (Phrygian)
0, 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12
etc ...
The relative intervals between notes in a scale affect the "feel" of the scale ... hence the different feel of the different modes.
MikeM
Yep Wizard I'm pretty sure that's understood at this point ?
Which is why I commented on my way of seeing modes. Playing the C major, while resolving to G, over a G Major chord, is going to sound mixolydian.
At the moment I have a good few perspectives of using modes (I.e derivative, parallel, and then what's being referred to now, playing according to chord with the mode relative to the interval of the key) and I'm just looking for more clarification in that sense. I think Rene's comment of changing the key has helped me understand things a little better ?
Wizard
MikeM wrote
Yep Wizard I'm pretty sure that's understood at this point ?
Sorry ... * blush *
:-[
MikeM
No prob, might help some of the people also trying to figure these things out ?
I get them and the flavours. It's still the application that bothers me.
Renesongs
Here are are some of my perspectives on modes. On a guitar it is a means of either finding a comfortable position to play in a particular key e.g. playing the Eb from Ionian mode at the 11th fret on a nylon string is a lot more difficult than say playing F Dorian for Eb at the first fret. On guitar learning all your modes for each key you play in enables you to confidently use the whole fretboard and range of your instrument rather that noodle around on one spot in 2 octaves. On keyboards wind and brass instruments modes are a way of accenting notes other than the root of a scale and more importantly changing key. Some jazz guitarist associate different modes with different chord types and then follow the chord progression with a mode progression. I've tried this for a few years but never quite got the hang of it.
MikeM
I see - thanks Rene... Still basically sums up what I think now. I guess I was expecting more of an "AHA" moment ?
