What's the REAL difference, other than hype?

rich365 · 2010-03-20T11:22:28+00:00

I've been following the forum for a long time but only joined recently so this is my first posting. I have had guitars over the years with all kinds of pickups including Dimarzio, Seymour Duncan and EMG. I have liked and disliked some for various reasons and have also been enticed to buy new ones when a famous flavor of the month guitarist endorced a certain brand or model, or when pickups are specifically created for a famous player, i.e. the Fender Jeff Beck set (which I find really dull and unspectacular) or the Fender EVH set (same story) Recently a friend came over to watch a Super 12 game and we always jam a bit afterward. Pete's definitely a cheap skate (he won't mind me saying that and is kinda proud of it) when it comes to guitars and was bragging about a set of pickups called Tonerider that he got for a steal from a local online store. I laughed it off at first but I was really surprised at how good they actually sounded. The vintage Dimarzios in my Strat didn't sound half as good. So here's my question: Can someone tell me how it is possible that a Tonerider pickup that costs R400.00 can sound clearer and more punchy than my R1350.00 Dimarzio pickup. Are we all being misled though marketing? Is it because it is generally perceived that anything from the USA is "that much better" ? Is it because the well known brands have gradually increased their prices over the years although the product basically remained the same? Is it because manufacturing is much cheaper in the East? Is it communism? Is it capitalism? Why? I'd like to get your expert advice and opinions about this. Thanks Richard Taylor Midrand

rich365

I've been in industrial robotics for ten years and at the top of the game and believe me, I wouldn't want to develop a pickup winding machine on a small budget. Not even on a medium one (big bucks anyone?). The winding is not just a matter of maintaining constant tension (to the contrary) and winding up and down like a transformer - You get scatter winding machines but they don't create patterns like hand winders do. Most winders seem to believe it's partly due to tension and patterns in combination with the right potting that makes hand wound pups really come alive - they apparently pick up the vibration of the body on top of the relative motion of the string. Don't forget the wire is not exactly thick and strong etc.

Point taken MikeM! Your use of the word "apparently" says it all. I mean how far do you (not you personally though) want to take it? Eric Clapton sounded phenomenal on Lace Sensors (just listen to the 24 Nights concert CD and DVD), just like he did when he played on his Blackie (spelling unsure) Strat in the 1970's. I guess its in your head and in your fingers and in your talent and in how long you've practiced more than whether the pickup had been scatter wound by hand. I think these hand winds are no more than toys for eccentrics. Much like Eric Johnson, who "apparently" can hear the difference between an alkaline and a normal battery in his pedals.

Am I too critical yet?

rich365

I've never played on a guitar with hand-wound pickups - so I wouldn't know any better, but I'd really LIKE to! The question is WHERE? Where do I get a guitar with hand-wound pickups to compare to my guitars.

This is what I mean, it's like an elitist thing. Comes back to my original post. Why are we paying so much more for these "super-model" pickups when there are Toneriders that does the job exceptionally well?

MikeM

So now you're saying that Lace is as good as SD? Live tone is not the same as studio tone dude.

http://www.lollarguitars.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=lollar-customers

Wonder why these guys use them then..

How can you pass judgement on pickups you haven't played? Yes handwounds are expensive and there're diminishing returns but after playing them, I'll never go back. I mean I paid the same for my single coil handwounds that I did for a set of SSL1s - humbucker handwounds cost lest than a machine wound custom shop SD.

I'm not talking about Timbuckers here cause they're ridiculous but stuff like BGpups, Lollar, Vintage Vibe and Zhanglin. Amazing stuff, decent pricing, outclasses anything for the same money

AlanRatcliffe

rich365 wrote Hand wound pickups are for eccentrics.

Ahem. Thanks! ?

I really think Seymour Duncans are the best out there

They have some great pickups in their range. So do DiMarzio, Lollar, Fralin, GFS and Tonerider.

I have to agree that your idea with the two pick guards is excellent, however its just too much work man!

Not for some of us. In fact, when reviewing the DiMarzio Area series I had three pickguards in rotation (with terminals on jack wires to facilitate quick changes) and was comparing the different Area sets to each other and two different sets of Kinmans in the same guitar. If you're serious about it, there is no other way to get an accurate comparison.

I have to point out that "modern materials" are essentially the same as vintage materials. Wire is the same, insulating coatings may vary but alnico 2, 4, 5 etc are the same (if its different its not alnico, which is a very specific alloy)

Do yourself a favour and read Basic Pickup Winding by Jason Lollar (the industry standard book) and Animal Magnetism by Erno Zwaan. All else being equal, insulation type makes a huge difference to a pickup's tone and Alnico varies by region, manufacturer and batch.

To return to Tonerider, if you read about them a bit you'll see that they adhere to strict vintage manufacturing principles, sure they use modern precision manufacturing techniques, but they still use the scatterwind principle and use authentic alnico magnets from China (who by the way also supplies USA manufacturers)

I'm not knocking Tonerider here. I've already said they make a fantastic product for the money. Which US manufacturers are using Chinese magnets? I know some manufacturers definitely don't and I also know that when Guitar Jones started sourcing Alnico from China a lot of the boutique pickup winders stopped buying from them until they found a reliable European source. Same thing has happened with humbucker covers and baseplates at different times (plated brass is not the same as German silver).

Eric Clapton sounded phenomenal on Lace Sensors (just listen to the 24 Nights concert CD and DVD), just like he did when he played on his Blackie (spelling unsure) Strat in the 1970's.

Apples and oranges again. Clapton's active mid boost circuit turns the relatively bland Lace Sensors (or the Vintage Noiseless which he now favours) into completely different animals.

Much like Eric Johnson, who "apparently" can hear the difference between an alkaline and a normal battery in his pedals.

...and it was proved he can (and more - by better/more knowledgeable people than myself). Plus there is solid science as to why he can.

MikeM wrote http://www.lollarguitars.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=lollar-customers

Don't forget the even more impressive: http://www.lollarguitars.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=lollar-builders ?

Lollar, Vintage Vibe

Jason is going to wind my set for electric 12-string (he also makes the best P90s). Pete wound the unusual sized humbuckers for my bass and did a great job at less cost than a set of normal Duncan 'buckers. In both cases we planned every last detail of the pickups together. Ya can't do that with Seymour or Larry/Steve anymore.

AlanRatcliffe

rich365 wrote I know I'm drifting off the point but I personally dislike noiseless pickups, especially Fender's noiseless offerings

I agree about the Fender models. I've been on a noiseless single-coil quest since the HS-1s first appeared, and (aside from the Bill Lawrence LS series), I have tried quite literally everything available since. I do a regular patent search for any new patents on the topic and keep up with it as much as I can. Of all of them, the Fender Vintage Noiseless were the biggest disappointment. Hot noiseless are a little better and so are the SCNs, but both still flat, lifeless and lacking in high end detail in comparison to the real thing or the better noiseless sets.

I really like Seymour Duncan Vintage Stacks - definitely the best noiseless pickups out there!

You'd be interested to know that they are basically copies of the DiMarzio HS-1 then and a very similar design to the Vintage Noiseless. Basically "generation 2" of noiseless technology (we're up to gen four).

Kinman pickups are also overpriced. He is very sharp and a good marketing man and he built his reputation around hype but other than being noiseless his products are nothing special.

There we part ways. I wasn't blown away by his Traditional Mark IIs (I prefer the DiMarzio Area '61/'58/'58 combo for a "modern vintage" set), but love his Blues set more than anything else on the market. Kinman's Woodstock Regulars are also great - the best hot Strat pickup set bar none (including real single-coils like Fralin Blues).

Banditman

rich365 wrote Much like Eric Johnson, who "apparently" can hear the difference between an alkaline and a normal battery in his pedals.

Am I too critical yet?

Too critical? Thank heaven for intelligent debate.

As for Eric Johnson, and adding to what Alan just said, I don't think it's beyond belief. Amazing perhaps, but not beyond belief. Think about it this way: your average pub goer listening to a cover band couldn't tell the difference between a custom shop Strat or an SX copy, nor do they hear anything but the basic chords.

Your musicians with trained ears (and musical talent) can very clearly hear what's being played - and what's not being played. Most of us can tell the difference between a guitar with single coils & a guitar with 'buckers. Some can go further and hear tonal qualities in the wood, the effects chain or amp setup etc. There's no reason to doubt that a few are able to hear what many cannot.

The entire tone "thing" is so subjective, so open to personal taste and interpretation, that there will never be a single accepted Holy Grail for all. As far as I'm concerned that's fine by me -variety is the spice of life, and it's better to search than stagnate.

rich365

Ahem....good morning!

My first post has generated a lot of furious debate here and I thank everyone so far - excellent!

MikeM, be careful not to be snobby or elitist. Seymour Duncans & Lace Sensors happen to be a personal favorites of mine. I never liked DiMarzio single coils, but their humbuckers are great in general. I don't think anyone here is enough of an authority to say which is better or worse, but we all have experiences and can offer informed opinions. Get a copy of Clapton's 24 Nights, sit back and listen to it, I'm sure you will love his sound on that recording. Never mind the mid boost that he activates for solos when using overdrive. For what it is its a great single coil Strat sound, maybe not authentic vintage.........but nevertheless great! I have the same Lace Sensors on one of my Strats and I love them, great tone AND noiseless!

Alan, yes yes yes - OK, I probably don't have the inclination to go as deep into the subject as you. I've had a new look at Kinman and this Lollar guy, and I suppose if I was a star and wanted something VERY specific, down to the number of coil turns, impedance, magnets etc etc I will benefit by going to one of them, but these are luxury options for the more fanatical enthusiast. (I'm moving on from eccentric now!) I see Keith Richards' name there, and I can't help thinking where his famous tone originally came from - old guitars with old pickups. Listen to Beggars Banquet. It appears that Lollar also only makes low output humbuckers, judging by his standard impedance ratings, so he is probably a vintage enthusiast too - nothing wrong with that though and prices are very good. I'm interested. Alan, how do you connect and buy from this bloke?

Lets leave the battery issue - its rubbish and extreme! As for the insulation around the pickup wiring - it's nonsense that it should make any difference at all, never mind WHO says so. Wire thickness yes, but not insulation material! Its only an electrical current, that's all!

Banditman raises interesting points - Yes, tone is subjective, and this brings me right back to where I started. Tone is in the ear of the beholder (can one say it like that?) and in my opinion we are too easily led by the latest guitar hero and star and by what they say or use. The majority of it is still hype and marketing. Toneriders at 380 bucks are hard to beat and I've heard what they can do.

Anything else?

AlanRatcliffe

rich365 wrote My first post has generated a lot of furious debate here and I thank everyone so far - excellent!

Spirited debate is OK. Argument for the sake of argument would be something else entirely, and I would not bother to take part.

the more fanatical enthusiast. (I'm moving on from eccentric now!)

Baby steps... LOL!

I see Keith Richards' name there, and I can't help thinking where his famous tone originally came from - old guitars with old pickups.

True. Unfortunately there is a limited supply of those around and a big demand. Hence the effort lots of people are putting in to recreating the better examples.

It appears that Lollar also only makes low output humbuckers, judging by his standard impedance ratings, so he is probably a vintage enthusiast too - nothing wrong with that though and prices are very good. I'm interested.

He is a vintage enthusiast and cut his teeth on the old lap steel, Tele and Strat pickups. His take on the PAF does tend to being a bit tame by modern standards, but the clarity and articulation are among the best. He also builds fine vintage style guitars, but that gets overshadowed by the pickup business.

Alan, how do you connect and buy from this bloke?

You can buy direct from his site. Email infoATlollarguitarsDOTcom if it's something out of the ordinary. If it's something really unusual, Jason will get involved himself from the start.

Lets leave the battery issue - its rubbish and extreme!

Interestingly I was speaking to someone who designs power switch-mode supplies last week and when the subject turned on to batteries he mentioned having been part of a team that extensive testing on different brands of batteries and the findings were that they are not all created equal. I mentioned the Johnson claims and he said he wasn't surprised - particularly in simple circuits (like overdrive pedals) there is a measurable difference in circuit response.

As for the insulation around the pickup wiring - it's nonsense that it should make any difference at all, never mind WHO says so. Wire thickness yes, but not insulation material! Its only an electrical current, that's all!

Wire thickness, yes... exactly. While the wire may all be 42 or 43 AWG, the different insulation materials (enamel, polyester, formvar, Teflon) have different thicknesses and by the time you get to the 7000+ turns wire it makes a difference to the size of the coil, which affects both output power and tone.

PeteM

Banditman wrote The entire tone "thing" is so subjective, so open to personal taste and interpretation, that there will never be a single accepted Holy Grail for all. As far as I'm concerned that's fine by me -variety is the spice of life, and it's better to search than stagnate.

Fully agree with this, however one can get so caught up in the techno thing surrounding the hype of branded and non branded items in our search for the Holy Grail in tone terms that we forget what our ultimate objective is, and that's to play the bloody instrument. (I often get lost in techno as an excuse or a substitute for my inadequacies as a guitarist.)

Lethe

PeteM wrote
Banditman wrote The entire tone "thing" is so subjective, so open to personal taste and interpretation, that there will never be a single accepted Holy Grail for all. As far as I'm concerned that's fine by me -variety is the spice of life, and it's better to search than stagnate.
Fully agree with this, however one can get so caught up in the techno thing surrounding the hype of branded and non branded items in our search for the Holy Grail in tone terms that we forget what our ultimate objective is, and that's to play the bloody instrument. (I often get lost in techno as an excuse or a substitute for my inadequacies as a guitarist.)

Well said. +10^10^10^10. Everyone is bloody caught up in what gear they use and what's better and who's better no one talks about how they play the damn thing. Its all about cock comparisons and not about the action (the action which depends on what we as individuals do and not what everyone else does). I like this thread and think Rich raises some good points. I think a lot of it is hype and some day i would like to grab someone who claims they can hear the difference in all this and that. But what do I know? For 5 years all I had is 1 guitar one pedal and one crap amp. And I didn't care, because all I wanted to do and all I did was play the damn thing. And that's what it is about (for the main part). yes, I'm lacking a trained ear in all these nuances of woods etc and I don't know much about gear or electronics or gear (which one should know and I'm learning thanks to brilliant and open people like Alan, Keira, Gearhead etc), but I'd like to think I can play the bloody thing. Which counts for something (or not.. depending on if someone cares)

Lethe

...and if Marty Friedman is happy with some average Ibanez SZ model and can make it sound good, I really don't care about how expensive your guitar is and what pickups you have shoved up someones ass for that tone. Play me something that means something and I'll listen. People just copy someone elses set up and then brag about this and that. Same thing like copying a nirvana riff and bragging about that. Who gives a flying turd?
Yes, its interesting experimenting and trying different things and I respect all of you who have the ear and patience for that. And it's always evident who does it for the love and who does it to be able to talk crap.

Rant rant.

[deleted]

Big up, Lethe.

Sean

I agree with you Lethe, and I know you said you respect the guys that are big on tone, just wanted to underline that. I also have a relatively poor ear for tone, I have however advanced to the stage where I can tell when I don't like my tone (this happens rather often,same gear,same set up,etc,etc),but have not reached the point of knowing why I it's off. We need tone hounds, we need the guys that can deconstruct tone to it's finest most basic element, simply because, we eventually do develope an ear for..

Sean

...tone, and when we do, we need these guys to help us find the tone that works for us. (UGH, posting from a cell phone is a real pain, sorry for the double and split post)

Lethe

agreed. I think I'm also at that stage, hence the recent influx in gear. It seems however some people tend to think that getting the best gear around will make them sound good somehow. It's still in the fingers and how you use it.

But I guess I'm being judgemental... whatever floats your boat I guess. Or dries your hair. Or makes you sleep at night, Or strums your guitar. I just find it terribly annoying when it comes to people comparing cocks.

MikeM

Lethe, mind keeping it civil?

AlanRatcliffe

It's all music AFAIC. Some are more inclined to the tech side of gear/guitars, some the tones, some the tech side of playing, some the emotive side of playing, some the songs and some the performance. Just as well really, where do you think guitar techs, sound engineers, songwriters come from? IMO, it doesn't matter what you're doing with it, playing on stage to a million people, bashing out simple songs around the fire or (de)constructing guitars, as long as you're having fun doing it.

kp247

Good thread this!

Rich has raised some interesting points and I've followed this thread with interest. I also own some Tonerider humbuckers that I bought from the online store in Cape Town. Someone here said that their humbuckers weren't that good and I have to disagree strongly with that. Having owned dimazios, seymour duncans, EMG's and what not I can say from personal experience that the Toneriders are just as good, in fact probably a lot better considering the price I paid. One should not have to pay exorbitant money for a pickup to get good sounds. It is indeed what you hear in your head, how you perceive sound and how much you practice that the final product will show itself through your hands' interaction with your instrument. Then there is also natural talent!

Here's another thing to think about. I have purchased pickup parts from stewart macdonald's online store and I know that they sell every single part that you can possibly need to build any kind of pickup. The name escapes me now but there is a bloke from Texas in the US that builds expensive boutique pickups with nothing more than parts from Stewmac. He makes them to order and charges upwards of $200 per pickup.

What I'm saying is that a lot of these so-called boutique builders just use ready-made parts from a myriad of US suppliers and then turn some coils with a specific number of turns and a specific magnet and whatnot and then people perceive this as the new holy grail of boutique pickup design. Get a famous bloke to use it and you're a made man. Like Rich rightly says - its just marketing and hype! - very true!

I mean, even I can turn wire onto a pickup bobbin until it reads a specific resistance. We did this in high school to build a speaker, same principal. Just check out Jack White in the movie "It Might get Loud" on youtube and see how easy it is. With a bit of practice anyone with a bit of practical handyman skills can do it. All you need is a little single phase motor with a thyristor speed control and a steady hand and your away! Then the more you wind the better you get!

telefan100

A magnet is a magnet, an alnico magnet is an alnico magnet. To be an alnico (whatever grade) it needs to conform to a specific recognized internationally agreed alloy structure. This is the same wherever it is made. The Chinese happen to make the best magnets in the world, just like they have been experts in metallurgy for 100's of years.

A magnet made in USA is no better than a magnet made in China, or Japan, or Australia (not that they make them anyway). It's all marketing and hype and I'm glad there are more people who realize this.

Now where's that cat drumstick I was chewing on! ?

rich365

What DID I stir up here! ?

Alan, thanks for the info, I'll definitely check Lollar out! You're also spot on with the vintage Keith Richards/amp/guitar deal - I've not looked at it from that angle.

I must agree that if coil wire insulation is thick it will obviously affect the physical size of the coil but how this will effect tone and efficiency is up for debate, yet I'm not personally interested.

This post is more about the merits of spending 150 Dollars (around R1600.00 if you include shipping and customs duties at the post office) for a boutique US product against spending R380.00 for an excellent product that is now readily available locally, and to my ears just as good.

Any other opinions would be welcome.

Rich.

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