Rich, you've raised some very profound points...

In my case, (having recently modded one of my guitars) i was quite brand-conscious when i went for Dimarzios (Air Norton & Tone Zone).
I visit the Dimarzio website often, and i look at all the guitar players (who inspire me) and go, "Hey, XYZ plays Dimarzio and i really like his sound"...then, i sit and do a comparison (not that i understand electronics much).

I've heard much about Toneriders on this forum and having played Stratisfear's japanese strat (with toneriders in the bridge), i actually like the sound..but maybe if tonerider were to up their game in tghe marketing department, things would be different i suppose.

If i were Tonerider, i'd probably go around music stores and do workshops on pickups...and which guitar player doesn't want to know more about that stuff.

Thats just my two cents...Sorry i haven't answered any of your Qs.

Hope you find the answer you're looking for though.

Welcome to the forum Richard.

We have discussed Tonerider on the forum before: http://www.guitarforum.co.za/setup-mods-and-repair/www-tonerider-co-za/

The SA dealer for Tonerider is also on the forum, so he will be more than happy to answer your questions.

I have never played Tonerider before, but have heard good things about it.

On a lighter note:

Recently a friend came over to watch a Super 12 game

That must have been a few years ago, since it has been the Super 14 for the last few years ?

Enjoy the forum!

One thing to understand is that Di Marzio, Seymour Duncan, Tonerider etc are not one thing. It's possible that your friend had a set of Toneriders designed to give a vintage tone and you had Di Marzios designed to give a contemporary metal sound. All these pup manufacturers offer a range of pickups offering different tones across a wide spectrum.

And yes, sometimes we do pay for brand names.

The feedback from the guys on this forum who have used Toneriders has been very positive.

Nice topic! Can-O-WormsTM though ? LOTS of factors...

I've been through nearly everything at some point or other. Was quite the pickupholic at one point, casting around trying to find the "perfect" pickups (and did... at least, perfect for me and for my guitars...). I haven't tried some of the newer models, main reasons being I'm pretty settled with what I have, both guitar-wise and pickup-wise), and anyway, can't afford to keep up with all the new models and plethora of new builders each year. What that mad period did though was teach me what all the differences were and now I can pretty much predict what will work best for what my specific needs are with a specific guitar.

The biggest difference is that pickups are all different. As players, our ears and tastes differ from other players' ears and tastes, and our gear is also personalised and often fairly unique. As Bob has pointed out, every brand has some kind of range which usually covers a wide style of needs and you might be in effect comparing apples to oranges. But even comparing apples to apples, nuance is often the key - and some players may find that the pickups that suit their ears 'n gear are relatively inexpensive - like Toneriders or GFS - while others might only find their personal tonal Nirvana can only be found in Tom Wolfe pickups at R3K+ each. I've learned to ignore price as a factor in what I want - as should everyone IMO - I find what works best and use it.

As to why certain pickups cost less than others...

• Country of origin - yes, cheaper to build in China than the US. You lose some quality and consistency, but your production costs come way down
• Production numbers - make more of any model and they are cheaper to build
• Width of range - Make a narrow range, ideally with the same tooling and small number of parts, and your production costs are cheaper
• R&D - Some companies (notably DiMarzio, Kinman, Fralin, Lollar) put a lot of money into R&D. Others simply copy existing designs.
• Materials - use what is commonly available and inexpensive and you keep costs down. If you are a perfectionist, where only a certain Alnico IV from a very specific German factory gives you the results you want (Jason Lollar), things get a bit more expensive.
• QC - For most, Q.C. a balancing act between cost of returns and cost of Q.C.. Then again, for some, a single return is regarded as a personal failure
• Technology - it's easy to make a simple single-coil that sounds good, but if you want a noiseless "single-coil", it is far, far more complex and expensive to design and build
• Automation - For large numbers, automation reduces costs
• Custom building - smaller builders can build to order, larger builders cannot
• Quality - Look at a Kinman pickup or Lollar pickup and compare build quality to less expensive models and you will see that not all are equal. Not even close.
• Overhead - bigger companies have bigger overheads

Now manufacturers all have different balances of all the above factors (and more). Some you are paying more because they are doing a lot of R&D and are a large company. Others are cheap because they have little to no R&D, are building only a few models, are using a lot of automation and manufacturing in China.

A company like Tonerider are good, because they are managing to produce inexpensive pickups which are better than the vast majority of run-of-the-mill cheapies. Their trade-offs are a small range and Chinese manufacturing.

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Look at a Kinman pickup or Lollar pickup and compare build quality to more expensive models

Ouch Alan, how much more expensive are the models you want me to compare those against :'(

Speaking of Kinman's, are they stocked locally or should one get them from his website?

Gearhead wrote:

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Look at a Kinman pickup or Lollar pickup and compare build quality to more expensive models

Ouch Alan, how much more expensive are the models you want me to compare those against :'(

Mistype! should read "less expensive models". Corrected now.

Riaan wrote: Speaking of Kinman's, are they stocked locally or should one get them from his website?

Buy direct from him.

Arjun, both my Strats are fitted entirely with Toneriders...and I seem to remember you (and Brent!) (And Aubs!) had good things to say about my Stratoflop's tone... Or were you just being kind?

Wow, it took me about 30 minutes to absorb all of this. Fantastic responses! Sorry everyone, I keep on doing this, I know it's the Super 14, and weren't the Bulls great last night!

Anyway, for the record, I think I AM comparing apples with apples. I have a set of DiMarzio True Velvet vintage pickups in my Strat and I was comparing to the Tonerider Pure Vintage in Pete's guitar. The Tonerider pickups just sounded a lot fuller with a nicer top end. I have been thinking about it though. Maybe the type of wood and neck and fingerboard has something to do with it too? His guitar has a maple fingerboard and mine has Rosewood. His guitar is also a lot lighter than mine, which has an Alder body.

Thus, here are my thoughts so far:

• We generally pay more for famous brands - I understand this!
• USA brands are not always better than other foreign brands - I know this too, just look at their cars!
• A small range will be cheaper to manufacture if you keep tooling automated and precise.
• Alan talks about R&D - I question why this should be expensive. It's a guitar pickup! I mean how much research do you have to do on something that was essentially "perfected" during the 1950's and 60's
• It will indeed be cheaper to produce something that has an existing blueprint, hence no "R&D".
• Being in manufacturing myself I believe in automation - this is exactly what you need for consistent quality and precision
• It is probably true that it is cheaper to manufacture in the East than in the USA but does the $ not have something to do with it?

I know I'm drifting off the point but I personally dislike noiseless pickups, especially Fender's noiseless offerings, that's why I immediately rip them out. Having said that I really like Seymour Duncan Vintage Stacks - definitely the best noiseless pickups out there! I really don't know about the other brands Alan mentioned, but in my opinion Kinman pickups are also overpriced. He is very sharp and a good marketing man and he built his reputation around hype but other than being noiseless his products are nothing special. Don't get me wrong - there is nothing wrong with any of these brands and I generally like them all, it's just that I cannot believe that these Tonerider pickups sounds THAT good for the price!

I hope I'm not too critical for this forum and your opinions will be valuable.

Rich[/list]

Stratisfear wrote: Arjun, both my Strats are fitted entirely with Toneriders...and I seem to remember you (and Brent!) (And Aubs!) had good things to say about my Stratoflop's tone... Or were you just being kind?

Oh you're bang on the money Strat. I absolutely love the sound of your guitars. I wasn't aware that you're 72 also had toneriders in.

rich365 wrote: Anyway, for the record, I think I AM comparing apples with apples. I have a set of DiMarzio True Velvet vintage pickups in my Strat and I was comparing to the Tonerider Pure Vintage in Pete's guitar. The Tonerider pickups just sounded a lot fuller with a nicer top end. I have been thinking about it though. Maybe the type of wood and neck and fingerboard has something to do with it too? His guitar has a maple fingerboard and mine has Rosewood. His guitar is also a lot lighter than mine, which has an Alder body.

Different pickups in different guitars. Yes wood and other factors make a difference, so the best pickups for a specific guitar are not necessarily the best for another.

• Alan talks about R&D - I question why this should be expensive. It's a guitar pickup! I mean how much research do you have to do on something that was essentially "perfected" during the 1950's and 60's

They weren't "perfected" - as with most things of the time, they were simply the best that they could do with the materials and technology that they had. The subsequent music and playing styles were as much shaped by those idiosyncrasies as the technology was shaped by the music.

Generally they were of a higher quality (because they were designed with a particular set of materials in mind), but there was a lot of variation from example to example with as many duds as there were "happy accidents" that suited the emerging music. A lot of the R&D in subsequent years has been in unravelling the mysteries behind what made some of them "better" than others. Just as much research has gone into trying to make pickups manufactured with modern materials sound the same as the best examples of the past.

Then there are the new technologies and modern materials that many try to incorporate into modern pickups. Different magnetic materials, advances in magnetic theory, etc. Lace Sensors, EMGs, Noiseless "single-coils", Duncan P-Rails, single-coil sized humbuckers, humbucker size single-coils

It will indeed be cheaper to produce something that has an existing blueprint, hence no "R&D".

Which is why so many companies are willing to simply copy existing designs, allowing others to do their R&D for them and copying the results cheaply. Parallels with Behringer there...

• Being in manufacturing myself I believe in automation - this is exactly what you need for consistent quality and precision

Consistent quality and precision I can go with, but one of the first things you learn about winding is that a perfect coil does not make for the perfect pickup. So ideally you find the imperfections that make it sound better and design and build machines that can copy the imperfections.

It is probably true that it is cheaper to manufacture in the East than in the USA but does the $ not have something to do with it?

It does, but labour will still be a big part of it - even if it's "only" machine and robot techs. Ideally you source raw materials close to your factory too, which are not necessarily as good as those available elsewhere.

I hope I'm not too critical for this forum and your opinions will be valuable.

Heaven forbid! No, this is interesting.

I'll come back to the noiseless pickup debate later...

Rich.. You know much about pickup winding? You know the components of a single coil? You know how it's made? There's not THAT much of an art to a plain single coil - yes the handwound set I have in my Squier outclasses any of the SD's I have tried - but to make a decent single coil that tough.

Also Tonerider started off on single coils and they are good pups for the money. Their humbuckers are not as good as their single coils.

What you should try however is setting up 2 pickguards with the SAME hardware and different pups and try swap em. Comparing 2 similar strats is comparing apples and apples yes, but it could be like golden deliscious vs granny smith - completely different things in my books ?

Also, aspects that affect the sound are wire (composition, guage and insulation), break angle, tension, scatter, stagger and more..

MikeM wrote: Rich.. You know much about pickup winding? You know the components of a single coil? You know how it's made? There's not THAT much of an art to a plain single coil - yes the handwound set I have in my Squier outclasses any of the SD's I have tried - but to make a decent single coil that tough.

Also Tonerider started off on single coils and they are good pups for the money. Their humbuckers are not as good as their single coils.

What you should try however is setting up 2 pickguards with the SAME hardware and different pups and try swap em. Comparing 2 similar strats is comparing apples and apples yes, but it could be like golden deliscious vs granny smith - completely different things in my books ?

Hey Mike, I'm impressed with your knowledge on apple varieties (Sorry, i'm in fruit export..couldn't resist). ?

Dude.. I LIVE for apples. Tho only golden deliscious ? Chow a baggy of them a week.

Wait so does that mean you can hook me up with A grade apples? ? ? ?

I'll have to have an apple before I reply again!

Does Hunters qualify?

rich365 wrote:

• A small range will be cheaper to manufacture if you keep tooling automated and precise.

{..}

• Being in manufacturing myself I believe in automation - this is exactly what you need for consistent quality and precision

I've been in industrial robotics for ten years and at the top of the game and believe me, I wouldn't want to develop a pickup winding machine on a small budget. Not even on a medium one (big bucks anyone?). The winding is not just a matter of maintaining constant tension (to the contrary) and winding up and down like a transformer - You get scatter winding machines but they don't create patterns like hand winders do. Most winders seem to believe it's partly due to tension and patterns in combination with the right potting that makes hand wound pups really come alive - they apparently pick up the vibration of the body on top of the relative motion of the string. Don't forget the wire is not exactly thick and strong etc.

BTW I thought deliscious was spelled delicious regardless of how many you eat? :?

:-[ It helps show emphasis on just how delissschhhious they are ? (Thought it looked wrong hahah)

MikeM, I do know my way around pickups and the various components that make them up and I install, repair and wire all my own stuff. Hand wound pickups are for eccentrics. I really think Seymour Duncans are the best out there, whether single coil or humbucker. If you can't do it with a Seymour Duncan just DON'T do it at all - rather play golf! I have to agree that your idea with the two pick guards is excellent, however its just too much work man! How about you do it and then play it to me over the telephone. ?

Alan, you make some valid points, however I have to point out that "modern materials" are essentially the same as vintage materials. Wire is the same, insulating coatings may vary but alnico 2, 4, 5 etc are the same (if its different its not alnico, which is a very specific alloy) To return to Tonerider, if you read about them a bit you'll see that they adhere to strict vintage manufacturing principles, sure they use modern precision manufacturing techniques, but they still use the scatterwind principle and use authentic alnico magnets from China (who by the way also supplies USA manufacturers)

I do agree about R&D when it comes to people like EMG and Lace (who also made fantastic pickups for Fender during the 1990's). I have a Strat Plus Deluxe that sounds absolutely fabulous and the Lace pickups in it are also noiseless. However when it comes to recreating vintage pickups R&D goes out the window.

For the record I've actually ordered 2 sets of Toneriders while the price is still this good. I reckon these babies won't be this cheap forever!

Time for another Hunters!

rich365 wrote: Hand wound pickups are for eccentrics. I really think Seymour Duncans are the best out there, whether single coil or humbucker.

Have you ever played a handwound?

rich365 wrote: I have to agree that your idea with the two pick guards is excellent, however its just too much work man! How about you do it and then play it to me over the telephone. ?

If you have played handwounds, then it's obvious that you can't hear the difference between that and a SD. I can.