Don't forget Gabriela Quintero of Rodrigo Y Gabriela fame! She "smokes" a Flamenco guitar with the best of them! Would be interesting to pair her up with someone like Paco De Lucia.

Norio wrote: Don's right, those faces really ARE involuntary. My wife has always made fun of me but I can't stop them and I've stopped trying.

I'm not so sure. Go watch a good orchestra playing a complex piece. Do they all have their tongues sticking out and their faces screwed up?

Maybe they beat it out of them when they're learning. ?

Mark Knopfler is also pretty dead-pan when he plays.

X-rated Bob wrote:

Norio wrote: Don's right, those faces really ARE involuntary. My wife has always made fun of me but I can't stop them and I've stopped trying.

I'm not so sure. Go watch a good orchestra playing a complex piece. Do they all have their tongues sticking out and their faces screwed up?

Maybe they beat it out of them when they're learning. ?

well i know for one that I don't try make myself look stupid. it just happens.

bear in mind, people in an orchestra are highly educated musicians so difficult is an open concept.

Joop wrote: Mark Knopfler is also pretty dead-pan when he plays.

So's Paco ... it's extraordinary - I think if he had to show his true emotions he'd be screaming with pain and tearing his hair out. And jumping up and down. It's just he doesn't have time - there's all this music he has to play ?

Norio wrote: Don's right, those faces really ARE involuntary. My wife has always made fun of me but I can't stop them and I've stopped trying.

Involuntary they may be. But that doesn't mean uncontrollable. That's what performers do. They perform. I may not be able to get the look I want on stage, but it's for lack of practise, not because it's impossible.

I agree that it's an acceptable thing for men to look like they're trying to tame a wild mustang when playing a guitar riff. It's part of the vibe of a certain kind of rock music. It is a performance. As Vicky implies, the scowling metal guitarist is very likely a lot less physically dangerous than that guy with the Oakleys laughing with his mates in the pub. But it's part of the performance and part of what the music is trying to put across.

You look at early Clapton performances and the guy is like stone. The expression - and there was plenty of it - came straight out of his fingers. He's selling a different vibe: "This is serious music. Listen and be amazed. Don't be distracted by unnecessary stage antics."

But I don't think women can't pull of an aggressive performance as stage guitarists. I've seen it for a start. A friend of mine, Tarryn van der Byl, can freakin' shred man. And she doesn't hide it in her performance (unfortunately she seems to have given up). It might be easier for men, who grew up acting like this in the playground. But ultimately it's a performance - it's not real, the guitar is not your strangulation victim - and anyone who can perform (act) can do it.

/\/\/\

Those are some very good points you have there about the general message the performer is trying to get across

Don's right, those faces really ARE involuntary. My wife has always made fun of me but I can't stop them and I've stopped trying

It's a neurological fact, due to well known interconnections between the limbic and motor parts of the brain. It can be very pronounced in some people, but we can learn to suppress it. That's why babies spontaneously make dancing movements upon hearing music even before they can properly walk. In guitarists, it may persist as "guitar face".

Go watch a good orchestra playing a complex piece. Do they all have their tongues sticking out and their faces screwed up?

You don't see that, because classical musicians are trained not to do that. Foot tapping and face pulling is stamped out of them early in training. But check out the conductor...he often performs just like a rock guitarist! Equally good (IMO often better) musicians like jazz players on the other hand, clearly express their enjoyment (i.e. pleasant emotions in the lymbic system) via facial expressions.

My wife laughs at me also, because sometimes my lips pout as if I'm about to kiss. Of course she had to come up with some theory about guitar playing and breast feeding.... :-[

singemonkey wrote: Involuntary they may be. But that doesn't mean uncontrollable. That's what performers do. They perform. I may not be able to get the look I want on stage, but it's for lack of practise, not because it's impossible.

ie you don't practice becuae it doesn't and shouldn't matter... I read some people say practice in front of a mirror... (thats form classical musicians...)

Frankly I need to spend more time practicins what I play more than how I look playing it.

Riaan wrote: My wife laughs at me also, because sometimes my lips pout as if I'm about to kiss. Of course she had to come up with some theory about guitar playing and breast feeding.... :-[

Calls for research, that does! ?

I've seen the video of that show (with Coryell rather than DiMeola though) and Paco is struggling to keep up with the two plectrum players. He manages, but you can see it's quite an effort.

DonovanB wrote:

singemonkey wrote: Involuntary they may be. But that doesn't mean uncontrollable. That's what performers do. They perform. I may not be able to get the look I want on stage, but it's for lack of practise, not because it's impossible.

ie you don't practice becuae it doesn't and shouldn't matter... I read some people say practice in front of a mirror... (thats form classical musicians...)
Frankly I need to spend more time practicins what I play more than how I look playing it.

Shouldn't matter? Possibly. Doesn't matter? Consider a classical concert guitarist wearing a fake human-skin face mask and huge toothy gauntlets, tight leather pants, running around the auditorium as he or she plays a classical guitar built to look like it mated with a T-Rex. Now consider a metal guitarist sitting on a stool with a foot on the foot stand, a corduroy jacket or a cocktail dress, playing from a music stand. I don't think you'd argue that fans of either style wouldn't have a lot of difficulty getting past the presentation to take in the great performance.

Like it or not, if you want to get your music across, you have to present it in an appealing way. And that's an act of sorts. So women can act any part that men can.

singemonkey wrote:
Shouldn't matter? Possibly. Doesn't matter? Consider a classical concert guitarist wearing a fake human-skin face mask and huge toothy gauntlets, tight leather pants, running around the auditorium as he or she plays a classical guitar built to look like it mated with a T-Rex. Now consider a metal guitarist sitting on a stool with a foot on the foot stand, a corduroy jacket or a cocktail dress, playing from a music stand. I don't think you'd argue that fans of either style wouldn't have a lot of difficulty getting past the presentation to take in the great performance.

Like it or not, if you want to get your music across, you have to present it in an appealing way. And that's an act of sorts. So women can act any part that men can.

ha-ha, I just realised that this isn't about gender, it's more about genre.... any ever seen Kittie?

I still feel that at least some forms of music just come off better being done men. Why must a woman imitate what comes naturally to men when they put out testosterone driven music. I mean some of these guys - and I'm thinking of Slipknot, Pantera or Lamb of God etc - they are whipping the audience up into a frenzy that if you look at it in one way - the moshpit looks like a small war. I know there have been female 'warriors' and among us, and they still are thats for sure - but its just nice to watch that aspect of maledom. And even if it is a performance it just seems more for men ... I mean they get hugely sweaty and disgusting and that ...haha

lindsmuse wrote: I still feel that at least some forms of music just come off better being done men. Why must a woman imitate what comes naturally to men when they put out testosterone driven music. I mean some of these guys - and I'm thinking of Slipknot, Pantera or Lamb of God etc - they are whipping the audience up into a frenzy that if you look at it in one way - the moshpit looks like a small war.

Sure. But that's not solely about the music. It's also about image and conforming to a different set of norms.

Nobody should feel pressured to play music they don't like of course. But sometimes people may be inclined to like something outside their normal gender/race/class/national culture. If they do, there's nothing I can think of in music that would prevent people. And sometimes it's the start of something new - like a white, hill-billy truck driver singing black rhythm and blues music for example ?

singemonkey wrote: Nobody should feel pressured to play music they don't like of course. But sometimes people may be inclined to like something outside their normal gender/race/class/national culture. If they do, there's nothing I can think of in music that would prevent people. And sometimes it's the start of something new - like a white, hill-billy truck driver singing black rhythm and blues music for example ?

It's the audiences more than the artists that are problematic. The 1965 Newport Festival and it's aftermath are a good example.

X-rated Bob wrote:

singemonkey wrote: Nobody should feel pressured to play music they don't like of course. But sometimes people may be inclined to like something outside their normal gender/race/class/national culture. If they do, there's nothing I can think of in music that would prevent people. And sometimes it's the start of something new - like a white, hill-billy truck driver singing black rhythm and blues music for example ?

It's the audiences more than the artists that are problematic. The 1965 Newport Festival and it's aftermath are a good example.

Louis Armstrong's manager understood the situation. The tale goes that he walks into Armstrong's dressing room one night and finds his client warming up with something weird, arty and non-commercial. He asks "what's that?". Armstrong replies "Debussy." So the manager explains to Armstrong that if he wants to satisfy his soul he can play Debussy but if he wants to put food on the table he better sing "Hello Dolly".

Re the face pulling...

Goddamn its ugly... but its a performance thing. The audience should mostly consist of cd playing plebs. When they see the face pull, its associated with "Wow, that must be difficult... wonder if its gonna sound awesome"

And it works, lol. The audience goes nuts for it. Talking merely from watching dvd's than doing it myself. I never could pull more than playing guitar... the faces would require extra concentration or mirror practice (if you happen to find that amusing, I lead your attention to Joe Perry... he's not a spectacular player by all means, but he's a remarkable addition to Aerosmith that keeps it well oiled. He would practice poses and things in front of the mirror for several hours every day... it seems to have worked wonders)

I love female performers... its just so damn sexy. They may not be great lookers off stage, but while they are on it... hmmmm...drool