what area?

Shawnvs wrote: What is your oppinion on group classes. I tried this last year, and my students at St.Stithians could not care less.
My dream is to one day have an entire field of guitar students warming up playing rudiments. (just like the Bruce Lee karate movies where the monks practice and medidate) Is that too much to ask for?!

The pricing model would have to change. At the moment I pay for one-on-one lessons, I'd not be opposed to some kind of group lesson, but I wouldn't pay nearly as much.

I went to a group lesson once... I think if the pricing was adjusted accordingly (as Bob said) and also if the students were grouped according to skill level it will be cool. The group lesson I attended was about 10% cheaper than my one-on-one lessons and ended with me and a buddy doodling random tunes at the back while about half of the group was learning the A chord.

Bring the group lessons on ?

maybe cos i too am a guitar , bass guitar theory and composition tutor.... but group lesons are fine for general theory and very basic technique.... but i find out of my list of students i have only one student who would benefit from a group lesson all the rest are pretty advanced players who need to be guided personally on how to reach the "next level" and many want to learn multitimbral fingerstyle that i specialise in.... and no way could you teach that in a group.... maybe just an overview....

and i assume most people on this site can at least play guitar ....the basic Braai kinda thing...or in garage bands.... surely most of these would need private tutoring to advance to semi pro or pro level...

just my thoughts on learning groups....

peace and light
keira 


ps... let me put in a personal punt... i do teach days/evenings.... and weekends out of my home in Glen Austin( midrand ) so easily accessible from highway from either jhb or pta (N1) or east rand...(R21) i teach all styles and both guitar and bass guitar.... and specialise in multitimbral fingerstyle playing (where you play bass lines/chords /solo or melody and percussion) all on one instrument simultaneously .... i also teach composition... to help you write better songs and understand music. so if you nearby contact me....

oh and they say those that can do and the the rest teach.....well i am the exception i "do and teach" I perform at least 3 to 6 pro performances a week in and around jhb and do session work.
did i mention the affordable rates??????

wow guys! now only if the young high school kids were as interested. I was also hoping to use some of you in as guest teachers, BUT thats a total different topic, but please let me know if you would like to show my kids your trade.

The price scheme I thought was to charge my normal hourly rate, but just divide it with however many students per class. The students will get a schedule of what will happen in what week, then they choose to sign up for lets say Week 5:Introduction to II V I. then I will know how many students attend, and I can charge accordingly.

My big reason for this was to get my kids ready for the rockschool exams. The students at the National School of Arts would easily ace these exams, but my students at the other schools really don't understand the work they must put in, and isn't ironic that all my pvt students are doing the rockschool exams. It's like I am leading them to the slaughter, and all I ask of them is to attend 3 groups a week at a fraction of the cost.

I was taught by Nick Carter and Luke van der Merwe, and still today use their model and it works really well at the Art School, but I find it impossible to get results from private people.

Thanks all for the input so far. ?

I have also been interested in providing ensemble lessons, but have found that the combination of lots of guitars is not so thrilling. What is vital is a good conductor, and the right material. I do think it's important for guitarists to compare notes, so it's hard to find middle ground. Inspiration is important, but I guess it does come down to the student's own imagination.

I wish you lotsa luck on getting together big group classes. I speak from experience (my biggest group class was 45) and it is a NIGHTMARE to deal with. Even when you are trying to teach basic theory, there will always be one person struggling, and that person holds them all back.

If you find the secret, let me know ?

A great secret I learnt from a sax player I taught with (Vaughn Tromp). He just said "Shawn, let the strongest guys lead the class, that way everyone gets the most out of the experience." That changed everything. What happens at the Art-School or most institutions of any insdustry is you'll find the weaklings dropiing out ANYWAY 3/6 months into it. So while those weeklings are sitting in my class with their W.O.W/XBOX hangovers at least they are experiencing and learning more than they would have, even though they'll be dropping out soon (i can smell drop-outs so i lose interrest in many students very quickly).

Since you mentioned W.O.W. and Xbox, have you tried offering Guitar Hero classes - there might be an interest ?

My take on group classes is that they're good to get started with the very basics. Once those have been covered, I think one-on-one would be the way to go. I feel better having a teacher concentrate on teaching just me and helping me develop my own playing style.

Yep. I agree with that. I didnt mention it coz im so used to the lesson structure Ive been using at The Art School all these years. I used to have 4 groups per week and 1 private lesson. The group lessons were literrally like guitar gym, and although I could see the benefit; as the years went on and computer game generation picked up, I found the kids to be seriously spoilt with this modern existance of INSTANT GRATIFICATION. Press play and the thing plays. Practice a minor pentatonic today and tomorrow I should play like Arch Enemy's/Slash.

I trailed off... Sorry.

What generally happens when I have groups: I see 5-20 kids, then in a month I can see who's strong and I speak to them about coming for private lessons or moving them up to a more advanced class. Although, generally my advanced classes become so much fun, because I mainly deal with Improvisation (no not jamming people, my kids need to get into tech/uct!). So you get the more intelligent kids like the private school kids who really have an ability to analyze solos and understand intervalls well; those group lessons are great fun because the students all swop ideas and although they can't play it well, they generally ask me to play their ideas and they all get to experience each others ideas. Gr8 Fun.

Looks like you teach nicely, shawn, with students coming up with ideas and stuff.

I have wanted to do group lessons for a long time but never been able to. My idea is along the lines of MIT and Berklee group where the student has to think for themselves. I don't spoon feed at all... spoon fed students make the worst musicians.

However, on your improv scheme not being a jam... to me it works better as one. That way, the student will see someone elses idea and be inspired to apply it in their own way... therefore a bigger understanding takes place which further aids their ideas for tech or wherever they will be going. Improv is, after all, all personal taste in the end and there are no rules for which notes the player likes more or less. Anyway, thats just me.

M.I and Berklee has been the model since before I even studied, so yeah. Exactly that, although I see music education changing worldwide, I feel that Berklee is not the same it used to be when Stanley Clarke was still studying there. This is probably a good thing, I'm sure even those heavenly music universities also struggled with decent buildings and broken equipment issues back in the day. Nowadays it seems that only the very rich can get decent music education at those institutions (Juliard, M.I, AMC), which creates an environment filled with emo boys and piercings running around with expensive guitars and gadgets. Things that international kids find hard to deal with when you are 100 miles from your home in Russia and speak broken english. ?

We have hope though, PTA tech is great especially with Hugo de Waal teaching (thank god!). The end result is a problem though, where do qualified students go to? Music education is more expensive than studying a medical/accounting course, but the end result is nothing. You could have spent your last years after school sitting in your room at night practicing while you wash your mom's car in the day an help run your dad's business and do deliveries while your they feed you.

I don't run around the musician scene showing my certificate; I play.

Shawnvs wrote: M.I and Berklee has been the model since before I even studied, so yeah. Exactly that, although I see music education changing worldwide, I feel that Berklee is not the same it used to be when Stanley Clarke was still studying there. This is probably a good thing, I'm sure even those heavenly music universities also struggled with decent buildings and broken equipment issues back in the day. Nowadays it seems that only the very rich can get decent music education at those institutions (Juliard, M.I, AMC), which creates an environment filled with emo boys and piercings running around with expensive guitars and gadgets. Things that international kids find hard to deal with when you are 100 miles from your home in Russia and speak broken english. ?

We have hope though, PTA tech is great especially with Hugo de Waal teaching (thank god!). The end result is a problem though, where do qualified students go to? Music education is more expensive than studying a medical/accounting course, but the end result is nothing. You could have spent your last years after school sitting in your room at night practicing while you wash your mom's car in the day an help run your dad's business and do deliveries while your they feed you.

I don't run around the musician scene showing my certificate; I play.

Myself having no degrees or anything, I can't really reply about showing certificates, lol. I can't boast about anything really.

But I have been thinking a lot lately (yes I know, its my fault we had that snow recently) about musicians in SA studying for zip in the end. Of course, they can study and end up teaching... whoopee, awesome. But what about something different. I read that the berklee and MI have interviews for the students and career "opportunities" for when they leave. Why can't that be implemented here? Somehow?

Those studying video or rather the technical side of it have opportunities available to them, but why not musicians? I wonder if Gerrie has taken this into account when he started SAMI... I guess i'll have to ask him that sometime. But wouldn't it be nice if our music market opened up?

I heard that Matts Music is sitting with about 400+ students... The majority of the teachers are in guitar... Thats alot of musicians who want to play, minus the odd one here and there (probably more like 100) whose parents want them to speel box kitaar cos its kwaai to klap those snares... So even at 300+, thats a lot of hopefuls.

Does COPA offer after grad work or opportunities? I don't know... I guess I'm merely pleading in a way for all opportunities to form a collective hub so to speak, so that the musicians could have somewhere to go look. The states has a page (or rather a few) dedicated specifically to finding musicians work... no foreigners are allowed to apply :'( so frikkin sad... had to delete the url after a while cos it constantly brought tears to my eyes that I couldn't apply :'()

Anyone have an idea of if this is possible?

about musicians in SA studying for zip in the end. Of course, they can study and end up teaching... whoopee, awesome.

That's kind of been the status quo for guitar since, well ever. Brilliant guitarists like Sor and Tarrega had to write easy little songs so they could teach people and make money. I realised that I needed a teacher to teach me the buisiness side of music, not to just put me through the mill so that I can play the small selection of music that everyone else at my level is playing so that I can somehow abstractly prove that I'm a good player. I realised I'll have to teach myself to be the musician I want to be.

Teaching is also a separate art to playing and requires diffent skills, realy. You have to be able to hold some one's attention, keep them at the right pace, literally while they're playing, so that they can absorb what they're doing. While it's exhilirating to walk someone through something and discover it anew with them, it's not realy the same as furthering your musical talents.

What realy worries me is that because popular music has become so, hmmm, accessable, it entices people to fall into a rut and never aim for anything higher, leaving the world with more and more amatuer gitarists who can call themselves teachers because the bar is set so low. Even classical guitar takes advantage of students wanting the easy way out, who just want the "authenticity" of a course, but never venture into the full capabilities of the instrument.

The fact is the less skilled guitarists have to be to "make it" the less opportunity there will be for great guitarists in the world. With less people taking it higher, and thereore less people writing complex pieces for it, the job opportunities for being a guitarist are, well, teaching realy easy stuff to people who are unaware and unwilling to try harder for something bigger.

yeah great post viccy .....definite +1

i also think that many tutors teach students songs.which is the 'quick fix" for the student who seems to progress quickly but .the tutor does not teach the theory behind the composition.......... or teach how students can be creative........... so we are sitting with a generation of musicians who learn off tab verbatim and try ask them to play something they have not learnt "parrot fashion " they can't .......

i have worked with many pro 'cover muso's" who are also guilty of this....... they can copy anything ... but just give em a chord sequence and say improvise and they litterally sound like absolute beginners...........

mmmm i think too composition is not taught enough by imformal tutors.......... and composition in itse4lf is an art which needsto be learnt.......

so yeah standards drop cos no longer does a guitarist need to have a firm grasp of classical or jazz .which is heavily theory based..... but modern guitar students are now becoming part of the "fast food" generation where they want to learn to play in 3 months....... so tutors end up teaching them like "parrots" cos the "full way just takes too long"

such a shame ..cos they miss out on the joy of using music as a creative art and not just a technical skill .....

Viccy wrote: Teaching is also a separate art to playing and requires diffent skills, realy. You have to be able to hold some one's attention, keep them at the right pace, literally while they're playing, so that they can absorb what they're doing. While it's exhilirating to walk someone through something and discover it anew with them, it's not realy the same as furthering your musical talents.

On the weekend I was at a braai. John van Nierop, who I used to take lessons with, was there. We got talking about teaching. He said that for him teaching is an important activity for him because it creates situations where he has to extend himself and learn new things.

John teaches a lot of players at various levels and in various styles. He also has pro musicians who come to him for a short time because they want to learn about a specific style or have a specific technical problem. I know that people have gone to John to learn about Indian music.

So I think it depends on the teacher's situation and what they are prepared to teach and to who. John takes on pupils at all skill levels and with a broad range of aims. He gets guys who want to learn heavy metal on an electric guitar, he gets people like me whose aim is self-accompaniment on an acoustic guitar, he gets people who want to learn bluegrass etc etc.

mmmm i think too composition is not taught enough by imformal tutors.......... and composition in itse4lf is an art which needsto be learnt.......

That's the general case. In school we were taught to compose for piano only. That sucks if you play guitar.

So I think it depends on the teacher's situation and what they are prepared to teach and to who.

Very true, and there is also the opportunity to apply what you know in new ways. Although there is the danger of superfical teaching. Teaching of the fundamentals (that when applied allows access to many styles) might be overlooked for the "quick fix" answer by the student. The more the teacher gives in and ignores the fundamentals the student will never progress smoothly.

Hold on a minute there. Now I have been facing this disgusting fact for a while, and deep down I understand how artists feel about the craft of creativity and trying to better yourself.

The issue with popular music becoming more accessible has been a problem since before the dark ages. Be thankful that more human beings are now being afforded the chance to experience what only "artists" can experience.

Fact, there are crap teachers out there in every sector of industry. Whilst I sit and teach kids how to play over changes, some teacher in Windhoek is sitting with slip-slops and dirty toenails teaching kids to play nirvana power chords. In each of those situations something extraordinary is happening; another human being is afforded the chance to touch an instrument and it is a profound experience that'll touch him for 30 minutes, or move him forever.

This artist banter reminds me of every musician I've met that whispers behind my back about me muting like crap, or being unable to play over Coltrane changes and phrasing badly whilst I have done 600 corporate gigs more than them. I have eternity ahead of me to study music further JUST LIKE YOU, and so does that guitar teacher in Windhoek.

Music belongs to the world as a means of modern communication, not to the select few who feel you can't play and appreciate music if you can't read. So next time you see your infant child dancing to the tv, smack her and wash her ears out everytime you hear a flat5.