What microphone?

Riaan

I'm thinking of getting my first proper microphone and kind of had my mind set on a Shure SM 57 or 58 - I'm looking for something "general purpose" to start with, mainly to record acoustic guitar and occassionally, vocals - not mine, it's for the odd occassion when a vocalist happens to come by. I now see Bothner's has a special on the Rode M1 @ R1395- (Was R1995-): what do you think of the Rode vs. Shure SM 57?

And while on this topic: my understanding is that the electronics of the Shure SM 57 and 58 are identical. Does this mean that either will be equally good at recording acoustic guitar and vocals?

If I can't decide between the two I think I'll go for something else, like a Neumann.... ?

nick

Sm58 has a build in pop filter if I remember correctly. there is also the budget PG57+PG58 which I was looking at at one stage.

Manfred-Klose

Rode vs. Shure SM 57

It's like choosing between a gibson and a fender ?

The rode m1 is a dynamic mic.
Do you have phantom power on your soundcard/mixer? if so, then get a condenser mic.

The rode would be better for vocals and acoustic guitars(a condenser rode), the sm 57(dynamic) is also good for acoustic guitar and excellent on guitar amps.

Wizard

I compared the SM57 to the SM58.
They do have exactly the same internal cartridge; but are contained withing different housings; which affect the acoustics.
The SM58 has the speech pop filter thing ... which the SM57 doesn't.
The SM57 is regarded as an instrument mike that works fine for voice.
Apparently the US President's speech thing always uses a pair of SM57's.
I bought one the SM57; think it's great - but have nothing to compare it too.
Needless to say Alan is an expert on such things ... ?
(I bought on his advice)

Manfred-Klose

Wizard, i have a SM58, can bring it by sometime if you wanna to a comparing experiment.

AlanRatcliffe

Don't look at brands yet - look at mic types and get what you most need for your application. For studio, your first mic should usually be a large diaphragm condenser (IMO). Then you branch out into mics with more specialised applications. Finally, you start getting into mics for very specialised applications or miking techniques, like omni and figure eight polar patterns (various stereo miking techniques), ribbon mics (acoustic guitar, vocals), PZMs (ensemble playing, choirs, grand piano lids).

No hard and fast rules, but generally in a studio:

* Large diaphragm condenser - Best for vocals, very good for most acoustic instruments, guitar amps, as room or ambient mics - in fact a good one can be used on almost anything where you don't have to close mic. Some are made to flatter the human voice, while others are more natural (and flexible).

* Small diaphragm condenser (ideally a matched pair) - best for acoustic guitars, banjos, etc., drum overheads, anything where you need lots of detail, fast transients and good high frequencies. Make for decent room and ambient mics and any stereo pair micing.

* Dynamic - Decent dynamics like a SM57 excel at close miking guitar amps and most percussion. Double up as a decent vocal or acoustic guitar mic (but usually outperformed by a condenser) and a passable kick drum and bass amp mic. Can be used for most things and give decent to great results, and works well live, so if you want a single, inexpensive mic for everything, an SM57 is usually it, and you can never have too many - especially where drums and close miked guitar amps are concerned.

* Large diaphragm dynamic - Kick drums and bass guitar amp close micing.

* DI box - DI-ing bass guitar

An SM58 is arguably the best vocal mic for stage use. Works OK in studio, but you'll almost never use it in studio when you have other options. If you were playing live too, I'd say start with a 58. My thinking is if you can get a good large diaphragm condenser for now, that covers what you need to mic most with great to excellent results - vocals and acoustic instruments. You're DI-ing all your electric instruments (if I'm not mistaken), and aren't doing any drum kit or ensemble micing, so in your situation I'd start with the large diaphragm condenser, followed by at least a small diaphragm condenser next.

Wizard

Manfred Klose wrote: Wizard, i have a SM58, can bring it by sometime if you wanna to a comparing experiment.

Bring it when you come over next Manfred.
I have a question - can I plug my SM57 directly into my guitar amp?

Riaan

Thanks guys, good advice.

You're DI-ing all your electric instruments (if I'm not mistaken), and aren't doing any drum kit or ensemble micing, so in your situation I'd start with the large diaphragm condenser, followed by at least a small diaphragm condenser next.

You're right Alan, all DI up to now. If I get a mike it will be used mainly for one of my acoustics (Yamaha, which to me has a better sound than my Cort when used unplugged). Also, some friends play all sorts of classical instruments - viola, recorder, etc. and I'd like to experiment with recording those also.

At first I thought about getting an acoustic pickup for the Yamaha, but decided I'd rather get a nice mike which can be used for vocals also. I'll look out for a large diaphragm condenser mike to start with.

Ray

I've been thinking about getting a microphone as well. I see on muz.co.za they have a Samson studio condenser kit. Advertised at 1295-00 but not sure when this proce was published. Consists of C01 large diaphragm condenser and a C02 pencil condenser. Is the pencil thing what is referred to as a small diaphragm? I dont know anything about the brand or it's reputation.

Riaan-Combrink

Ray wrote: I've been thinking about getting a microphone as well. I see on muz.co.za they have a Samson studio condenser kit. Advertised at 1295-00 but not sure when this proce was published. Consists of C01 large diaphragm condenser and a C02 pencil condenser. Is the pencil thing what is referred to as a small diaphragm? I dont know anything about the brand or it's reputation.

Can we also chat about the pros and cons of single and dual diaphragm condenser mics? See the duals are more expensive in the advertising (so probably better quality), but couldn't find much via Google as to the merits/demerits.

AlanRatcliffe

Riaan wrote: If I get a mike it will be used mainly for one of my acoustics

http://ratcliffe.co.za/articles/hsacoustic.shtml

Ray wrote: Is the pencil thing what is referred to as a small diaphragm? I dont know anything about the brand or it's reputation.

Yeah, sometimes called a pencil mic, because they are long and thin. Samson are a budget brand, not really known for their mics - I haven't tried them, so I can't comment.

Riaan C wrote: Can we also chat about the pros and cons of single and dual diaphragm condenser mics?

Dual as in stereo (Rode NT4)? Or dual as in having two different cartridges (Rode NT55)? The stereo mics are nice for a quick stereo set up, but have a fixed stereo spread (usually in a coincident X-Y configuration). Dual mics let you change cartridges with one that has a different polar pattern - an omni cartridge is always nice to have if you have a good sounding room, as it's much more natural.

Dirk

Wizard wrote: I compared the SM57 to the SM58.

Isn't the SM57 better for micing up guitar amp, and the SM58 more for recording vocals?

We've done a few recordings with the SM57 for the guitar stuff and it sounded killer. Don't know much about the SM58.

Heath

I use a sm58 for vocals , and i have used once at practise to record my amp , and all i can say is , they amzing mic's imo work really great ,

AlanRatcliffe

bLuEs aDDicT wrote: Isn't the SM57 better for micing up guitar amp, and the SM58 more for recording vocals?

The SM57 is an instrument mic, the SM58 is a vocal mic. They are near identical (same cartridge), with the only difference being the grille on the 58 has a pop filter built in (in the form of a thin piece of foam inside). The pop filter takes some of the high frequencies out and helps cut down vocal plosives. You can take the grille off an SM58 and use it as a 57, but have to be careful of knocking it without the grille on.

SM58s are great stage mics, but are made for close micing, with the singer's mouth right up against the grill. A studio vocal mic is a lot more sensitive and you sing into it from further away, letting the sound develop a bit before capturing it. You also get a more natural sound, as you avoid a cardiod mic's proximity effect (where the bass boosts unnaturally as you get closer to the diaphragm).

Riaan-Combrink

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Riaan C wrote: Can we also chat about the pros and cons of single and dual diaphragm condenser mics?
Dual as in stereo (Rode NT4)? Or dual as in having two different cartridges (Rode NT55)? The stereo mics are nice for a quick stereo set up, but have a fixed stereo spread (usually in a coincident X-Y configuration). Dual mics let you change cartridges with one that has a different polar pattern - an omni cartridge is always nice to have if you have a good sounding room, as it's much more natural.

Don't really know. Never thought about these kinds of mics for studio purposes, so just checked prices on the online music stores. Then noticed certain diaphragm condensers being advertised as either single or dual. So now I'm aware of a further dichotomy within the dual category!! I downloaded your mic articles from your site, so I'll start reading there and ask questions as I gain more chops.

Neps

I leave for 2 days and THEN mic's come up.. ☹ Alan has a point that a nice large diaphragm condenser would do the trick.. But in price range you could be caught off guard if your budget was for a SM58/57.. But that depends on the brand of the condenser.
58's and 57's are the same mics.. Nice all purpouse mics which can handle most things very well. They do sound a bit congested on vocals.. Depending on vocalist..

Did a guide track recording last night, and we used a 58 on vocals and it wasn't too bad.. But when I do the proper vocal.. Reach for the Nuemann.

AlanRatcliffe

Neps wrote: I leave for 2 days and THEN mic's come up.. ☹

We plan it like that. Makes me look good! ?

But when I do the proper vocal.. Reach for the Nuemann.

The U87, I presume? Sure, doesn't everyone? Now if I only had one... (all donations gratefully and gracefully received). ?

Neps

HAHAHA... U89 & TLM103.. Mate of mine has a U87.. Donation aplications should be sent to my PR department, and from there we will have a look at your credibility.. ? But seeing that you'll kick by backside at playing guitar, I don't see a lot of succes with the application.. ? hahaha

matta

If you think the U87 is expensive.... try the M269C, U67 and U47.... I own a '62 U67... estimated street price these days... HMMM, R60,000! The U47 is around R100,000+ and lets not take about the Telefunken ELAM 251/250... a cool R150,000+ and you thought vintage guitars were expensive ?

To the original poster... if you are on a budget I think you will cover more ground with the SM57 (I own 4), it isn't always the best mic, but a great all rounder (guitars, vocals, drums etc).

Personally I'd shy away from the Rode mics... but then I am spoiled, but seriously when you compare them to a higher end mics (I'm not even talking price wise) you will soon hear they are bright/spitty and while it may sound flattering on a track here and there as they start piling up they get nasal and congested.

Own of the best value for money LDC's (Large Diaphragm Condensers) on the market is the AT2020, nothing to write home about in vintage/warmth nostalgia, but a good, clean condenser at a great price (I think they are around R2,000).

RE the question of dual vs single diaphragms... all up to taste and application really.

Prob the most used pattern on any mic is cardioid (which my default most single diaphragm mics are), it eliminates alot of the room/extraneous noises/sounds, but does lead to a pronounced proximity effect (but used in the right hands it is great).

Omni is great for a more open sound, and lacks the proximity build up, and Figure 8 is great when recording multiple instruments at the same time and it helps to be able to position the mics so the extraneous noise is directed at the null points.

Hope that helps!

Cheers

Matt

AlanRatcliffe

Great post, thanks! Luckily, I don't think any of us are in the market for vintage mics anymore than we are in the market for '50s Strats and Les Pauls. Some wishful thinking maybe, but no serious intent.

Sure, the Rode mics pale in comparison when you are moving in the Neuman/Telefunken orbit - most mics do. But the Rodes are very respectable mics -especially in the price range. They do have flatter response mics, but I think the majority of their target market is looking for something primarily for lead vocal, where the hyped presence works well. I have an NTK I'm quite happy with for my voice (especially with a nice RCA 6922 in).

While I have you here - what are your preferences for general purpose small diaphragm condensers? Preferably something available as a matched pair. I'm using an old AKG C535, but am far from happy with it. I've been considering the Oktava MC012s, but am willing to consider other makes/models.