Intonation Issues

wern101

Hey people.

Appologies if this is a rehash of any topics recently started.

So I had my 40 year old acoustic redone with a new nut and saddle at the local guitar shop. Got it back and noticed something sounds 'off' when strumming.

Just now while tuning I noticed serious intonation problems. Eg: Low E, first fret I get a very sharp F, borderline F#. 2nd fret very sharp F#, almost G and so on for the rest of the frets.

I checked and every single note on every string and every fret is sharp. Some more than others. Even in 12th fret.

Help???

Is it the saddle or nut thats misbehaving? Or some other adjustments needed?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Werner232

It sounds like you got a raw deal with your new setup. Did the guys at the shop not check the intonation before returning it to you?

wern101

Yeah I think this may be the issue Werner. Really ticked off by this. Thing is I never heard it before the work as I got it and basically booked it in for TLC.
When I played it first it hadnt had a restring in over 5 years so not anything to compare with. Guess its back to the shop.
Sidenote: Nelspruit doesnt have that many guitar shops/pros to turn to. Infuriating...

Werner232

Hmmm! I know the feeling...

V8

I know very little about steel string acoustics - either they work or I walk away :?

Tough to say since you didn't get to hear if it was fine before the work. Do you have the original bits, do they look similar? Replacing them might be a good test...Although a tone or more out on the first fret is mighty weird.

If it's across all strings, I doubt the strings are the issue (sometimes I get a dud string, but not all 6).

This kinda weird that makes me think there is a deeper issue? Like a bellying bridge, neck that shifted or a bridge that's in the wrong place?

morph

Did they move the bridge forward towards the head at all or only replace the saddle?

My old Ibanez Steel string guitar saddle compensates partially for intonation by having different contact points for each string. Like the one fifth from the top in the image. Did they replace it with just a flat straight saddle?

wern101

[quote author=Meron Rigas link=topic=25535.msg271048#msg271048 date=1469599442] Do you have the original bits, do they look similar? Replacing them might be a good test...Although a tone or more out on the first fret is mighty weird. If it's across all strings, I doubt the strings are the issue (sometimes I get a dud string, but not all 6). This kinda weird that makes me think there is a deeper issue? Like a bellying bridge, neck that shifted or a bridge that's in the wrong place? [/quote] Definitely not a dud string. Original bits were so worn through that the strings started to cut into them. Nut and Saddle were both badly cracked and damaged from age. Bridge has not been moved but does have a little 'bump' or 'belly' just under it. Guys at the shop said it shouldn't be a problem. The neck was 'apparently' a bit off center and had to be tweaked. [quote author=Greg Perkins link=topic=25535.msg271050#msg271050 date=1469605344] Did they move the bridge forward towards the head at all or only replace the saddle? My old Ibanez Steel string guitar saddle compensates partially for intonation by having different contact points for each string. Like the one fifth from the top in the image. Did they replace it with just a flat straight saddle? [/quote] Only replaced the saddle, and not a straight flat one, although, now that i think about it, the original was just flat I think... Original images here: http://www.guitarforum.co.za/your-gear/1975-ibanez-vintage-627-dreadnought/ Updated saddle below:

V8

Hopefully someone knowledgeable will weigh in (I see gearhead posted in your original post) - I've mentioned before, I don't have much love for steel string acoustics...and even less experience with em.

The replacement saddle is a compensated one as Greg's one is - it should help with intonation, but what really interests me is how they tweaked a off center neck...would like to hear more about that!

If a note is sharp, one would lengthen the string (move the saddle away from the headstock). Pop on your Sherlock Holmes deerstalker and contemplate the case of the shortened string. :?

One thing you can check is the distance between nut & bridge - is it to the correct scale? This measurement divided by two should give you the 12th fret. If you are reaaallllyyyy bored, there's a bunch of online calculators that'll help figure out where the frets should be as well.

Gearhead

Have you gotten the old nut back? My guess is that the new nut is higher than the old one - this would explain all notes being sharp as well but be easier to slip up with, check and fix. If you have more trouble fretting the first fret, it's a tell-tale sign. The height of the strings from the fretboard near the nut should be virtually the same as the height of the first fret (if you have the gear to measure accurately).
A setup, especially one where nuts/frets are being worked on, HAS TO include checking intonation of the first fret with a strobe tuner or similar. One can always play around with saddles to get the rest right but filing a nut is no amateur's job.

wern101

Meron Rigas wrote: One thing you can check is the distance between nut & bridge - is it to the correct scale? This measurement divided by two should give you the 12th fret. If you are reaaallllyyyy bored, there's a bunch of online calculators that'll help figure out where the frets should be as well.

Checked and rechecked and all seems fine. (did not use online calculators though...)

Gearhead wrote: Have you gotten the old nut back? My guess is that the new nut is higher than the old one - this would explain all notes being sharp as well but be easier to slip up with, check and fix. If you have more trouble fretting the first fret, it's a tell-tale sign. The height of the strings from the fretboard near the nut should be virtually the same as the height of the first fret (if you have the gear to measure accurately).
A setup, especially one where nuts/frets are being worked on, HAS TO include checking intonation of the first fret with a strobe tuner or similar. One can always play around with saddles to get the rest right but filing a nut is no amateur's job.

This is the problem me thinks. I checked and the action is way high compared to my other el cheapo acoustic. About 5mm from fret to string. same on 12th fret. I read (somewhere) that is should ideally be 2 - 3mm? I believe this is the problem and will be taking it back to the shop for them to fix it up.
Fretting the first fret is quite difficult so the signs are there.

Also spoke to a guy yesterday that used to do setup on guitars. He reckons that the frets could also be worn out and might need to be replaced. At 40 years of age I guess this could be?????

He also reckons that the 'belly' under the bridge must be fixed (not that its big at all). It's quite a big job and would probably cost me around R2k he says. ☹ I don't know if i'll be going that route. The guitar isn't worth that much anyway. Plus it involves removing the top.... ?

Thanks guys. Will take it back to the shop and let them fix their mistakes. Will update.

Thanks.

V8

wern101 wrote: I don't know if i'll be going that route.

Methinks you have yourself the makings of a slide guitar - open G tuning and get your Keith on...

wern101

Meron Rigas wrote: Methinks you have yourself the makings of a slide guitar - open G tuning and get your Keith on...

hahaha. Thanks for showing me the sunshine in the clouds. Not a bad idea if it comes to that, but will really really try to get it the intonation right before I go southern... :?

Gearhead

On the first fret, fret to string should be almost nothing, just enough not to buzz. The frets are worn if you can't bend a string anymore - he's talking rubbish. If the problem was not there with the old nut, it's not the frets.
The top need not come off to fix most bellies, only to feed the belly of the luthier. Think about it: to glue one of the braces back onto the top you can use the same clamps one uses for bridge glueing, the biggest challenge is getting glue to the right place.

wern101

Thanks Gearhead! Appreciate the advice. ?

Quick update: took it back to the shop and the owner himself came to have a look. He immediately noticed a problem with the saddle and pointed it out the the guitar fixer guy. He also appologised for the action being so high and that it wasn't checked before. He assured me of his personal attention to the intonation.

Holding thumbs and breath that it'l be finally sorted next week.

dscoetc

Hi,

Something I didn't see mentioned( apologies if I missed itl. I saw the guys mentioning possible age related problems that basically would affect the scale length, but I didn't see anyone mention that perhaps the nut they replaced also may not be slotted correctly. I've found that when the gauge off strings are bigger on any new nut than what it was slotted for originally (depending on whether this was a new plastic nut or preslotted nut), if you get it back and the higher frets are now intonated but the low frets are still sharp then they didn't slot the nut properly and the string might catch higher in the slot and not directly where it leaves the slot. In other words the slot groove runs at a declining angle towards the headstock with the highes point being right where the string leaves the nut towards the bridge. If you still have problems you'll need to take it to someone else I'm afraid. The shop itself needs to tell you why they can't fix it and if so then they need to explain why they took on job they couldn't deliver.

wern101

dscoetc wrote: Hi,

Something I didn't see mentioned( apologies if I missed itl. I saw the guys mentioning possible age related problems that basically would affect the scale length, but I didn't see anyone mention that perhaps the nut they replaced also may not be slotted correctly. I've found that when the gauge off strings are bigger on any new nut than what it was slotted for originally (depending on whether this was a new plastic nut or preslotted nut), if you get it back and the higher frets are now intonated but the low frets are still sharp then they didn't slot the nut properly and the string might catch higher in the slot and not directly where it leaves the slot. In other words the slot groove runs at a declining angle towards the headstock with the highes point being right where the string leaves the nut towards the bridge. If you still have problems you'll need to take it to someone else I'm afraid. The shop itself needs to tell you why they can't fix it and if so then they need to explain why they took on job they couldn't deliver.

Thanks for the info! I got a message that the guitar is ready to be collected. I'll pick up on Thursday and see what has been done and if the problem is sorted.

The challenge with Nelspruit is that there is no one else to assist.... ☹ ???

wern101

Update:
Just got the guitar back. Saddle and nut have been adjusted (lowered) and the action is fantastic! Seriously a pleasure to play now.
There is however another problem - the truss rod doesn't work. ☹ That means that the neck cannot be adjusted leaving the E string with a bit of fret buzz. Not serious, but noticeable on the first 3 or 4 frets. This can possibly be fixed by raising the nut again ever so slightly, but that would bugger up the action again.

For finger style, it's fine, and sounds amazing!! Strumming softly is also not a big deal, I can live with a bit of buzz for now until I figure out how to fix the truss rod.

Guys as the shop says they have never had to fix a truss rod and reckon the best person to do so would be a guy in JHB. Can't remember his name... But it's apparently a biggie as the neck would "most probably" have to come off.

I'll still have to decide if I wanna invest more cash into it or just play it as is, which for now is what ima do!

Any ideas?

wern101

Bump. Any ideas?

morph

No sure about the neck having to come off, but definitely the fretboard

I've heard of Grant Fouche up in JHB

https://www.facebook.com/Granrtcustomguitars/

http://www.guitarforum.co.za/setup-mods-and-repair/sa-guitar-luthiers/

wern101

Greg Perkins wrote: No sure about the neck having to come off, but definitely the fretboard

I've heard of Grant Fouche up in JHB

Thanks Greg. That's what I meant to say - the fretboard :?

Yes! That's the guy they mentioned.

I also came across this video which I hope will assist.

I have to take time in opening the truss rod cover to see if my guitar is the same, then try this approach, and see what happens.

If all else fails I will have to raise the nut slightly.... or I will just just play it until i can't handle the buzz anymore, and then contact Grant.

Thanks again!