What's amusing is that the woody wing bits on an electric are all just fashion elements, not music elements. In acoustic instruments the size, shape, bracing, varnish etc make music differences.
Do you consider Tokai guitars counterfeits?
There's more than a few, especially in the Chinese car market growing exponentially. Jag/Range Rover are busy spitting bullets about a 1/4 Price Evoque knockoff - not much else they can do, lawsuits just don't work.proze wrote: That's not a correct comparison at all. There's no car company that has an exact copy of a competitor's vehicle bar the badge. And there absolutely would be lawsuits if anyone ever did that.
http://jalopnik.com/these-are-chinas-most-shameless-knockoffs-477338110
Kinda...except - Caterham bought the rights (and remaining parts) from Lotus for the Seven, when Lotus ceased production (72-ish AFAIK). Even the lo-cost replica's that are immensely popular vs Caterham's licenced replica isn't a great example, most of them are made by individuals and not mass produced - little point in litigating against 10000's of owners.GuitarDoge wrote: Lotus 7 and Caterham? Even more apt as Caterham is reproducing a very old design, just like Tokai.
There was a successful suit by Ferrari for the Pontiac Mera (1987/8), that's the best example that comes to mind.
A true "Replica" will have the Gibson logo on the headstock, like Slashes 1984 Kris Derrig "Appetite Les Paul".
It could also be classified as a counterfeit because it has the Gibson logo on the headstock, however it doesn't have a false Gibson serial number or the made in the USA stamp like the Chinese "fake/counterfeit" Gibsons.
So I guess you could call the Kris Derrig "Appetite Les Paul" a mix between a replica and a counterfeit.
Listen/watch this video, at 0:45 Slash talks about the 1984 Kris Derrig Les Paul.
“first of all we grab the Appetite Les Paul, I think it’s like a 85/84 Kris Derrig Custom Gibson copy Les Paul (laughs), and I’ve been using that since the first Guns & Roses record and it’s pretty much my mainstay for all sessions”.
It could also be classified as a counterfeit because it has the Gibson logo on the headstock, however it doesn't have a false Gibson serial number or the made in the USA stamp like the Chinese "fake/counterfeit" Gibsons.
So I guess you could call the Kris Derrig "Appetite Les Paul" a mix between a replica and a counterfeit.
Listen/watch this video, at 0:45 Slash talks about the 1984 Kris Derrig Les Paul.
“first of all we grab the Appetite Les Paul, I think it’s like a 85/84 Kris Derrig Custom Gibson copy Les Paul (laughs), and I’ve been using that since the first Guns & Roses record and it’s pretty much my mainstay for all sessions”.
Well, just to digress a little. But please indulge me. I played golf once with a guy who was quite a big deal for a major sauce comapny. And I was explaining to him what I do with my chicken baste/marinade. Maybe a bit naive of me but I divulged some real inner secrets. The biggest being the apricot jam. Smooth, not chunky.
Then, some time after that, I spotted this oke's brand on the shelf at the SPar. A chicken baste nogal. So I thought well it's a golf tjom so let's support. And when I used it and ate the chicken it tasted pretty much like my chicken tastes. So, I think they are putting the apricot jam in. Smooth, not chunky.
I'm a little bit upset, but not very. Do you think there is a chance to snake this company for some money with a lawsuit?
Then, some time after that, I spotted this oke's brand on the shelf at the SPar. A chicken baste nogal. So I thought well it's a golf tjom so let's support. And when I used it and ate the chicken it tasted pretty much like my chicken tastes. So, I think they are putting the apricot jam in. Smooth, not chunky.
I'm a little bit upset, but not very. Do you think there is a chance to snake this company for some money with a lawsuit?
Gibson won't complain about that!
Read the part I underlined.
"then somebody handed him a re-issue style Les Paul Standard"...in other words the Kris Derrig "Appetite Les Paul", and that somebody was Guns and Roses manager Alan Niven who bought it from a shop.
If Slash was handed a Tokai, or Burny, Greco, Navigator, Ibanez, etc, it would have read, "somebody handed him a counterfeit Gibson", but because Slash was handed the Kris Derrig "copy" they call it a "re-issue style Les Paul Standard"...then they copy the copy and release the Custom Shop "Slash signature Appetite for destruction" signature model...and then tell me I'm selling "counterfeit Gibsons". ?
"then somebody handed him a re-issue style Les Paul Standard"...in other words the Kris Derrig "Appetite Les Paul", and that somebody was Guns and Roses manager Alan Niven who bought it from a shop.
If Slash was handed a Tokai, or Burny, Greco, Navigator, Ibanez, etc, it would have read, "somebody handed him a counterfeit Gibson", but because Slash was handed the Kris Derrig "copy" they call it a "re-issue style Les Paul Standard"...then they copy the copy and release the Custom Shop "Slash signature Appetite for destruction" signature model...and then tell me I'm selling "counterfeit Gibsons". ?
http://www.slashsworld.com/equipment/guitars/59-les-paul-replica-built-by-kris-derrig/
I rest my case.
Thanks for your comments.
Btw, why can't I see the Logout link?...in fact I see no links on the top of the page.
I rest my case.
Thanks for your comments.
Btw, why can't I see the Logout link?...in fact I see no links on the top of the page.
Amen to that.
Please post that in the Site Feedback section. (Actually just look around there and you'll find the answer.)Tokai SA wrote: Btw, why can't I see the Logout link?...in fact I see no links on the top of the page.
So Gibson (not all the owners-sorry julle) is going to try convince us that Tokai LP and SG models are just counterfeit Gibsons, but the problem is: The don't say "Gibson" or "Made in U.S.A." anywhere and they also clearly pride themselves on branding their models with THEIR OWN brandname. That all said, If Gibson wins the debate on Tokai being a counterfeit, what are they then claiming? That all the PRS, ESP, Ibanez, etc guitars that have a single cutaway made of mahogany are also counterfeits? Biggest irony is that Tokai does not copy any ANY current model Gibsons, only the construction method of the old redundant way Gibson used to build instruments. You know, when they were worth buying.
If GIbson wants us to buy Gibsons. They must build them properly.
Business 101: Cut out competition, raise prices, cut corners and costs to increase profit.
Unfortunately they got the order wrong. You can't cut corners before cutting out the competition.
If GIbson wants us to buy Gibsons. They must build them properly.
Business 101: Cut out competition, raise prices, cut corners and costs to increase profit.
Unfortunately they got the order wrong. You can't cut corners before cutting out the competition.
What's with the sweeping statement about "all the guys buying (and selling) Gibsons"? In fact, if you go back through this thread it appears that the vast majority of people dislike Gibson's modus operandi re litigation, QC and resting on laurels, and that includes everyone who owns Gibsons, at least according to their signatures (or I know it independently). Also, most people have shown a lot of respect for Tokai.ryanguit wrote: Of course all the guys buying (and selling) Gibsons are going to try convince us that Tokai LP and SG models are just counterfeit Gibsons, but the problem is: The don't say "Gibson" or "Made in U.S.A." anywhere and they also clearly pride themselves on branding their models with THEIR OWN brandname. That all said, If Gibson wins the debate on Tokai being a counterfeit, what are they then claiming? That all the PRS, ESP, Ibanez, etc guitars that have a single cutaway made of mahogany are also counterfeits? Biggest irony is that Tokai does not copy any ANY current model Gibsons, only the construction method of the old redundant way Gibson used to build instruments. You know, when they were worth buying.
If GIbson wants us to buy Gibsons. They must build them properly.
Business 101: Cut out competition, raise prices, cut corners and costs to increase profit.
Unfortunately they got the order wrong. You can't cut corners before cutting out the competition.
In fact the only people who have come out swinging against Tokai have been pretty roundly shouted down by everyone else (and don't identify themselves as Gibson owners). So pound on Gibson all you want, but the Gibson players on here have played with a straight bat.
True. guitarforum.co.za is not a representation of what people say in person and on YouTube. I truly apologise for the generalisation. I came out swinging in a brawl that didn't exist. And worse, late. Cheers. I'll edit it shortly.
Sorry, man. I'm being over sensitive. Thanks for the classy reply.
Rather you say something, and I fix my error. No such thing as over-sensitive. Have a good one!
Jeez, this must be the most civilized spot on the internet.
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My five cents... Were all musicians with preferences. I prefer Tokai above Gibson... but I dont hate on anyone who prefers Gibson above tokai or Fender above Tokai or whatever... I think the key here is to stick to your preferences. Respect other peoples preferences and keep on keeping on at the end of the day. I do get very riled up however when there's weekend warriors who clearly have no basis to form an opinion on other than what they read on other forums etc...
Dont disrespect me and i wont disrespect you. a guitar is a deeply personal thing and it should stay that way.
Dont disrespect me and i wont disrespect you. a guitar is a deeply personal thing and it should stay that way.
+ 1, I agree...they have and that's appreciated.el guapo wrote:the Gibson players on here have played with a straight bat.ryanguit wrote: Of course all the guys buying (and selling) Gibsons are going to try convince us that Tokai LP and SG models are just counterfeit Gibsons, but the problem is: The don't say "Gibson" or "Made in U.S.A." anywhere and they also clearly pride themselves on branding their models with THEIR OWN brandname. That all said, If Gibson wins the debate on Tokai being a counterfeit, what are they then claiming? That all the PRS, ESP, Ibanez, etc guitars that have a single cutaway made of mahogany are also counterfeits? Biggest irony is that Tokai does not copy any ANY current model Gibsons, only the construction method of the old redundant way Gibson used to build instruments. You know, when they were worth buying.
If GIbson wants us to buy Gibsons. They must build them properly.
Business 101: Cut out competition, raise prices, cut corners and costs to increase profit.
Unfortunately they got the order wrong. You can't cut corners before cutting out the competition.
I've been following this thread fo quite a few days and there are such good arguments laid out I really didn't feel like I could add much to the conversation but it just occurred to me;
If I wanted to buy an instrument for 20k to 50k which is pretty much the whole Tokai/Gibson pricing spectrum - I sure as hell would know exactly what i'm buying - it's not like I'd go into a shop looking for a Gibson and walk out with a Tokai by mistake or under false pretenses and feel cheated. If I bought a Tokai over a Gibson it's because I chose to do so.
Gibson's argument of consumers being cheated is bull.. Anyone buying one of these instruments know exactly what they want. Now if I bought a Gibson les paul and it turns out it was a Chinese fake.......
If I wanted to buy an instrument for 20k to 50k which is pretty much the whole Tokai/Gibson pricing spectrum - I sure as hell would know exactly what i'm buying - it's not like I'd go into a shop looking for a Gibson and walk out with a Tokai by mistake or under false pretenses and feel cheated. If I bought a Tokai over a Gibson it's because I chose to do so.
Gibson's argument of consumers being cheated is bull.. Anyone buying one of these instruments know exactly what they want. Now if I bought a Gibson les paul and it turns out it was a Chinese fake.......
Violins are proudly advertised as Strad or Guanari copies. Even says so on the label. Hehe
