To speak up.......or not to speak up. That is the question.

Arno-West

Here's a bit of a rant. I am not going to name anybody or venue involved here for the time being, but something happened at a gig over the weekend which really irked me and for which I felt the need to voice my opinion (something we Pro-musicians rarely do for fear of being bad-mouthed and branded "difficult to work with"). This incident involved a venue manager and payment. Sad thing is that it was at a venue that I have played at many times with different bands and have built a relantionship (semi-formal-ish) with said manager over the last 5 years. The end result of what happened after our gig is that I have now been informed via another band member that I will never play at the venue again because of my "attitude". To tell the truth, I couldn't care less cos losing this 1 gig every 3 to 4 months at the place is not gonna make me bankrupt. What pissed me off, is the fact that I feel I didn't do anything wrong and this manager guy, after being caught out, feels guilty and is employing the "outta sight, outta mind"-tactic. Here is the lowdown of what went down:

The Diamond Dogs were booked to play at this venue. The standard deal at this venue is that the band takes the door revenue and venue gets 15% of the takings. So band gets door money minus 15%. Perfomance duration at this venue has always been 2 x 50 minute sets with a 30 min break inbetween. Starting time normall at 21:00. Entrance fee was R80 per person.
Now, I am always weary of door-deals, but as mentioned before, I've played ther before with various bands and it always turned out well.
About 40 minutes before the starting time, I was having a smoke outside and chatting to the manager (who was manning the door). He told me we should start a bit earlier and finish at 23:15 cos the place was packed-out and people kept asking him when the band was going to start. I said ok and went and informed the rest of the band. Everybody was happy with this cos this meant we could have an earlier night than planned.

So, the proceedings started and we kicked arse. 1st set done. 2nd set done. At 23:05, we played our last song and said good night. Band walked off stage at 23:12-ish, 3 minutes earlier than discussed.

Then, while I was standing at the bar, an audience member came up to me and offered the band R3000 to play an extra set. After making sure he wasn't bull-shitting and making sure it was cash (and not a promised EFT, cos we've been caught out like that before.), we cleared this with the manager (who incidently was super-keen cos it would mean more bar-revenue for him) and proceeded to play another 40 minute set. All done. Everybody happy.

As we were busy striking, I went to the office to sort out our money. As usual, the manager counted out the gross takings from the door infront of me and I verified it. He then got out his calculator and worked out his 15% and deducted that. Then he gave me the balance. Everybody happy.
No. He then asked me about the R3000 we got paid to do the last set and said he wants 15% of that. This was the moment that I realized he was trying to pull a fast one. I knew beforehand that the guy who made the deal with us, was somebody who booked a table of about 30 people and he had paid a R3000 deposit. This deposit he got back from the manager as the evening progressed and he was having such a good time that he offered that to the band to keep on playing. In my mind, the manager/venue had no claim to any of that money cos that was a seperate deal made between the band and a patron and we cleared it with management beforehand.

In a very diplomatic way, I said to the manager that I do not feel that it's right and that it was a seperate deal made with the band citing the above reasons. His retort was "But I booked the band......". I replied "In al honesty, any other venue or manager could have booked the band, so that's not a reason.".
I then said, ok let me go talk to the rest of the band and see how they feel. After discussing this with the other 3 guys in the band, we decided to give him 10% just to keep the peace. I went up to him and gave hime R300 and said that we do not feel it's right, but here's a "peace-offering" anyway.
I then packed up and went home. After I left, he went and spoke to the other band guys (who was still there) and bad-mouthed me etc.

Now, my question is this. Was I wrong in standing up for what I believed was right or should I just have nodded and said "Ok thank you boss, anything boss..." in order not to step on any toes or close any doors or burn any bridges.

Rant over. Any opinions on this would be appreciated.

PeteM

I would have gladly paid him his 15%. That was the deal right... 15% of the door. The fact that door stayed open longer is irrelevant.

Arno-West

PeteM wrote: I would have gladly paid him his 15%. That was the deal right... 15% of the door. The fact that door stayed open longer is irrelevant.

Nope, that R3k was not part of the door. It was a deposit the guy paid for a booking of about 30 people. All 30 pitched up and paid their entrance (part of the door). The guy then got his deposit back and decided to do with it what he wanted to. The venue DID get their 15% from the door for this booking cos all the patrons arrived as per the "booking" they made and paid their entrance fees.

ryanguit

like Pete I would have paid him his R450, then told him quite flatly that I would be talking to the band about whether or not we want to play here again as the R3000 was clearly not part of the door.

Him asking for you to start earlier and end later and play effectively an extra set for the same 15% of the door is pretty much bull. It is how its done, and what happened to you is common. Neither side is wrong as if you had discussed with him before resuming, no misunderstanding would have occurred.

however him asking for 15% was pushing his luck, and you not paying him a cent would have been bad attitude considering the misunderstanding that he tried to bank on...

IceCreamMan

Tough one Arno.... I gotta say no right and wrong here as I guess both sides see themselves as being right.

no contracts in place either so its word against word.

The deal was 15% of the door, the band performed as agreed and the deal was done. Everyone performed their obligations and its done.

The punter who offered the 3K is in essence a new deal, the previous deal had been honoured.

I would of kept the 3k in similar situation if it were a one off thing, as it could lead to less bookings in the future possibly I would of conceded the 15% but with a side word that future deals of this nature would not be subject to the 15%.

AlanRatcliffe

Arno West wrote: Now, my question is this. Was I wrong in standing up for what I believed was right or should I just have nodded and said "Ok thank you boss, anything boss..." in order not to step on any toes or close any doors or burn any bridges.

No. You were right and I believe you must always stand up against people taking advantage like that. I wouldn't have even conceded to the 10%. And if I had, I would also ask for an official receipt from the venue "for tax" and to make sure that it wasn't just the manager pocketing the off-books cash (or call the owner after the fact, asking for a receipt ?).

The simple fact is you had a contract with the venue, which was lived up to in full. The additional set was a private deal and nothing to do with the venue (and they scored from it anyway). Now, it would be a completely different thing if when you cleared it with the manager he asked for a percentage then and you agreed to it. Then it's a new contract.

IMO. Venues have no right taking any percentage of the door anyway unless they are guaranteeing a minimum or it's above a certain minimum agreed upon account (say 15% on anything above R10K). The band takes 100% of the risk in taking the door, so the benefit is also to their account. Taking a percentage of the couvert sets a bad precedent and amounts to the venue double-dipping - they made their money from the happy patrons.

Ultimately you lost one client - but a client that tries to screw you will do it again and managers come and go... Rather work to get another client who will be as professional as you are.

And I'm a big fan of naming and shaming. Social media is a great forum for that. ?

Arno-West

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Arno West wrote: Now, my question is this. Was I wrong in standing up for what I believed was right or should I just have nodded and said "Ok thank you boss, anything boss..." in order not to step on any toes or close any doors or burn any bridges.
No. You were right and I believe you must always stand up against people taking advantage like that. I wouldn't have even conceded to the 10%. And if I had, I would also ask for an official receipt from the venue "for tax" and to make sure that it wasn't just the manager pocketing the off-books cash (or call the owner after the fact, asking for a receipt ?).

The simple fact is you had a contract with the venue, which was lived up to in full. The additional set was a private deal and nothing to do with the venue (and they scored from it anyway). Now, it would be a completely different thing if when you cleared it with the manager he asked for a percentage then and you agreed to it. Then it's a new contract.

IMO. Venues have no right taking any percentage of the door anyway unless they are guaranteeing a minimum or it's above a certain minimum agreed upon account (say 15% on anything above R10K). The band takes 100% of the risk in taking the door, so the benefit is also to their account. Taking a percentage of the couvert sets a bad precedent and amounts to the venue double-dipping - they made their money from the happy patrons.

Ultimately you lost one client - but a client that tries to screw you will do it again and managers come and go... Rather work to get another client who will be as professional as you are.

And I'm a big fan of naming and shaming. Social media is a great forum for that. ?

Thanks for that Alan. You put my thoughts into words much better than what I did. I will name and shame eventually. Just giving it some time to blow over. ICM however knows exactly who and what I'm talking about cos he was there on the night and dutifully paid his R80 entrance. He's a legend.

GuitarDoge

If there was no explicit statement when you agreed to play the extra set that the manager would take some of the R3000, there's no right for him to do so.

Simple as that.

PeteM

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: The additional set was a private deal and nothing to do with the venue (and they scored from it anyway).

However the deal was done on their premises and even though they scored on the extra time and tab, I believe the 15% stills stands. But hey that's just me... I wouldn't think that I was being screwed.

Having said that though and that you hadn't come to any agreement prior to the extra set, and disagreed with him post the set, I don't believe he had any right to foul-mouth you.

Arno-West

PeteM wrote:
Alan Ratcliffe wrote: The additional set was a private deal and nothing to do with the venue (and they scored from it anyway).
However the deal was done on their premises and even though they scored on the extra time and tab, I believe the 15% stills stands. But hey that's just me... I wouldn't think that I was being screwed.

Having said that though and that you hadn't come to any agreement prior to the extra set, and disagreed with him post the set, I don't believe he had any right to foul-mouth you.

Pete, in hindsight, I get your point, but at that moment it was a different story. Maybe as a retort to his laying claim to the extra R3k, I should have capitulated, but at the same time then laid claim to 15% of the nett bar takings for the last hour of the evening. Why not? He wouldn't have had the extra business if it wasn't for the band......and it would have been just as a suprising claim from my side to him as his was to me. Maybe it would have been an ice-breaker to show him how ridiculous his claim was. I still believe though that he tried to pull a fast one because his actions afterwards (to me at least) reeks of a man that got "bust" and he feels highly embarresed about it.

doc-phil

If it had been me, I would have been bleak, but probably would have done as you did and give 10%.

If you had to clear the 'new deal' with the manager in order to play the third set, he probably assumed the venue would take a 15% cut, you assumed he wouldn't. The result was a misunderstanding that left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. A pity.

If, before the third set was played, the manager advised that he would only allow the third set if the venue took a 15% cut, would you still have played? I think that is the question.

Arno-West

doc-phil wrote: If it had been me, I would have been bleak, but probably would have done as you did and give 10%.

If you had to clear the 'new deal' with the manager in order to play the third set, he probably assumed the venue would take a 15% cut, you assumed he wouldn't. The result was a misunderstanding that left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. A pity.

If, before the third set was played, the manager advised that he would only allow the third set if the venue took a 15% cut, would you still have played? I think that is the question.

Even if he did specify that he would take his cut from the extra payment, yes, I would have played, no question about that. The audience takes preferance over anything else in that sitaution. Hell, we probably would have played another set anyway if the crowd stayed and made enough noise. We were all having a good time.
For me it is not so much about the money here or meagre R450 cut that he demanded, but all about the principle of the matter.

Ray

The venue hires the band so the venue is providing the music. I dont think I can go into a licensed place and sell liquor and keep the money. Can I go and strip at Teazers and take the money?

PeteM

Bokvet wrote: The venue hires the band so the venue is providing the music. I dont think I can go into a licensed place and sell liquor and keep the money. Can I go and strip at Teazers and take the money?

+1
That's how I see it.

AlanRatcliffe

Bokvet wrote: The venue hires the band so the venue is providing the music.

Ah, but the venue didn't hire the band did they? Door deal, the patrons pay the musicians, not the venue - no-one turns up and the band don't get paid. That's why venues like them - no risk to them and the band pulls in customers they can make money off of. Different story if they said "come play and we'll give you R10K".

I dont think I can go into a licensed place and sell liquor and keep the money.

With their permission, yes, you can. Especially if it's a deal where they get a slice of the proceeds.

As I see it, it's all down to the contracts. The initial contract was completed. A new contract was verbally agreed upon, the manager made a mistake by not setting any terms for the new contract, and then tried to apply the terms that hadn't been agreed upon retroactively.

Legal types? Any input?

Arno-West

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Bokvet wrote: The venue hires the band so the venue is providing the music.
Ah, but the venue didn't hire the band did they? Door deal, the patrons pay the musicians, not the venue - no-one turns up and the band don't get paid. That's why venues like them - no risk to them and the band pulls in customers they can make money off of. Different story if they said "come play and we'll give you R10K".

I dont think I can go into a licensed place and sell liquor and keep the money.
With their permission, yes, you can. Especially if it's a deal where they get a slice of the proceeds.

As I see it, it's all down to the contracts. The initial contract was completed. A new contract was verbally agreed upon, the manager made a mistake by not setting any terms for the new contract, and then tried to apply the terms that hadn't been agreed upon retroactively.

Legal types? Any input?

Exactly. Door Deal. Door Deal. Door Deal. I hate door deals.
As a side note, in the past, when I played there with Alter-Irving, we sold CD's at the door. The same manager handled the sale of cd's and gave us the income from that at the end of the night. It was quite a useful money-spinner for us and he NEVER EVER laid claim to 15% of our CD sales. All the more reason why I think he thought he saw a gap and took a chance. Bad luck for him that I didn't fall for it........well almost.

PeteM

We loosely call it the door, but I see it as the take for the evening that is subject to the 15% fee for the owner.

Here's an example in another industry that I was involved in. As an advertising agency we would employ the services of a supplier on behalf of our client for which we would transparently indicate a mark-up. Now whilst the client has every right under the law to employ that supplier to do addition work on that same job that was not originally briefed to the agency, it would be seen as bad practice if the supplier did not pay the agency a commission on that extra business. If the supplier did not inform the agency and took the gross fee then it would be likely that agency would not employ that supplier again. Also this kind of practice is viral and it is likely that other agencies would find out about it......

doc-phil

If the second agreement was:

Arno: Can we play another set? This dude just gave me R3k.
Manager: Sure, go ahead.

Then the venue is not entitled to anything out of the second agreement, although it could be averred that it was an implied term of the agreement that a 15% cut would apply. Which way a judge would swing would depend entirely on what he had for breakfast that morning.

Legalities and practicalities are, however, two different things.

PeteM

Here's a thought Arno.
Why not charge a R20 door fee upon which the venue gets 15% and pre-negotiate the R60 balance with your fan-base. I wouldn't do it though for obvious reasons. :-[

ajf

Is your name and reputation worth the R150 ? Did you pay the venue for venue hire as you used their electricity etc for the last set. This one can go both ways but if it was me I would pay the R150 and move on and rock another day ?