Firstly, plan your soundproofing before you put your ceiling in - that's often one of the biggest weak links and a soundproofed room is a system, only as good as the weakest link.

If you need to avoid A/C then you are basically stuffed - airtightness is inextricably linked with soundproofing and where air flows, so does sound.

Best you can do is have a decent amount of proofing but no air when recording and open up for air between takes (and heaven help you if you fall asleep/pass out in there with the room shut up). However I've done this and can tell you that a sealed room with no fresh air gets very fatiguing very quickly (and the more people in the room the faster you run out of air). Also in a sealed room, condensation becomes a real issue and then you really need the dehumidifying part of an A/C.

Tell me more about the room construction - type of roof, number of doors, windows, etc. And how far you are willing to go construction-wise to achieve decent results.

Hi Alan,

So A/C seems to be the way to go. What if I use something like a water cooler? I think that's what it's called. Direct translation from afrikaans. I would still have an air issue then I think? it will only be for personal use though. So between takes I can open up for air and while mixing ect I could leave the door open.

The roof is constructed from corrugated iron (sinkplaat?) as it is on a farm. I am going to use normal rhino board as a ceiling. The room is about 4 x 3m. it has only one door and it is made from brick. It also only has one window. steel frame. About 1.5m x 500mm

Construction wise I don't want to do much but I'm open to your suggestions?

On another note. opinion on the recording equipment?

Thanks Alan!

P.S Merry Christmas!

Dean.

:goodtimes:

Badapple wrote: What if I use something like a water cooler? I think that's what it's called. Direct translation from afrikaans.

Swamp cooler? Basically ice and a fan? Even worse - doesn't pull air into the room and adds moisture when you'll be needing to get rid of it.

The roof is constructed from corrugated iron (sinkplaat?) as it is on a farm.

Do you need a lot of soundproofing then - I would imagine it's more to keep some noise from your recordings than keep your noise from the farm?

OK. Roof, ceiling and window are your weak points.

Seal the roof properly - make sure it's airtight against the top of the wall and between sheets. Rigid fibreglass below that pushing against it - at least 50mm thick and 47kg/m2 density (or about 75mm thick if you use rockwool). The insulation is crucial as not only will it bump your isolation by 3-4dB and help dampen the roof, but it will also help avoid condensation inside the room when the roof heats up (I've seen sealed rooms where the water literally runs down the walls in the morning) and a double-layer of at least 6mm rhinoboard for ceiling. That's about as good as you'll get for your roof structure without replacing the entire roof with something that has more mass and/or building a second later of joists from the walls for the ceiling.

Windows, put in a heavier glass (ideally laminated glass) and seal the opening windows with draught excluder/foam weatherstripping. Alternatively take out the window and replace with glass bricks for light.

Replacing the door structure with a sliding door fitted with laminated glass (or ideally two) would be first choice. Otherwise, use a solid door and also seal with weatherstripping. If the frame doesn't have a sill at the bottom, make one so it seals all the way round. Fit a Yale lock (regular locks leave an air path through the keyhole) and use surface mounted handles for opening.

On another note. opinion on the recording equipment?

That all looks fine. Add a decent set of headphones and don't forget mic and instrument cables.

This is an interesting discussion

I have a house with a loft that has been converted into living quarters/rooms. One of these rooms about 3X4 meter dimensions and 1 window. In the summer and day time hot as hell and at night in winter cold enough to freeze the bollocks of an Eskimo.

There is very little space between the roof tiles and the ceilings, about 150mm.
I have been thinking of purchasing Polystyrene tiles to stick to the ceiling, walls and just about everything to insulate the room and make it more temperature stable. Has it been done and will it keep the temperatures more stable?

The wall panellings are attached to the roof trusses and it will be possible to attach insulation to the dry walls outside but not on top of the ceiling.

For sound proofing I am considering heavy drapes and corner traps.

Any advice appreciated thanks

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:

Badapple wrote: What if I use something like a water cooler? I think that's what it's called. Direct translation from afrikaans.

Swamp cooler? Basically ice and a fan? Even worse - doesn't pull air into the room and adds moisture when you'll be needing to get rid of it.

The roof is constructed from corrugated iron (sinkplaat?) as it is on a farm.

Do you need a lot of soundproofing then - I would imagine it's more to keep some noise from your recordings than keep your noise from the farm?

OK. Roof, ceiling and window are your weak points.

Seal the roof properly - make sure it's airtight against the top of the wall and between sheets. Rigid fibreglass below that pushing against it - at least 50mm thick and 47kg/m2 density (or about 75mm thick if you use rockwool). The insulation is crucial as not only will it bump your isolation by 3-4dB and help dampen the roof, but it will also help avoid condensation inside the room when the roof heats up (I've seen sealed rooms where the water literally runs down the walls in the morning) and a double-layer of at least 6mm rhinoboard for ceiling. That's about as good as you'll get for your roof structure without replacing the entire roof with something that has more mass and/or building a second later of joists from the walls for the ceiling.

Windows, put in a heavier glass (ideally laminated glass) and seal the opening windows with draught excluder/foam weatherstripping. Alternatively take out the window and replace with glass bricks for light.

Replacing the door structure with a sliding door fitted with laminated glass (or ideally two) would be first choice. Otherwise, use a solid door and also seal with weatherstripping. If the frame doesn't have a sill at the bottom, make one so it seals all the way round. Fit a Yale lock (regular locks leave an air path through the keyhole) and use surface mounted handles for opening.

On another note. opinion on the recording equipment?

That all looks fine. Add a decent set of headphones and don't forget mic and instrument cables.

Ok I'll see how I can sort out the cool air problem lol.
Seems like you are pretty informed in this field?
I am aiming to keep my "noise" from leaving the room yes. the farm doesn't have much noise.
I'll find out what it all costs and see what I can manage.
Thanks Alan.

Stoffeltoo wrote: I have been thinking of purchasing Polystyrene tiles to stick to the ceiling, walls and just about everything to insulate the room and make it more temperature stable. Has it been done and will it keep the temperatures more stable?

To be honest, I know far less about the heat insulation side than I do about the acoustics, and I think that you should always check with a roofing specialist before undertaking any modifications - at the very least a roofing expert will be able to confirm that your roof structure can take the extra weight of any modifications.

However, I would imagine that polystyrene will help (particularly the stuff with foil on one side), but probably not enough - you'd still need insulation between the joists. If you really can't get into the roof cavity easily, there are the loose fill solutions that can be pumped in through relatively small spaces.

FYI - where sound insulation is a concern, warm roof solutions are usually used (where the insulation is below the roof, leaving the air gap between ceiling and insulation) rather than cold roof (where it is between roof and insulation. The reason for this is the condensation - you need to ventilate a cold roof solution and that compromises sound isolation.

Also note that you have to get at least 250mm thickness of insulation if you use Aerolite, but in more confined spaces you could get away with far thinner rigid fibreglass boards (Energylite) - which also work better for sound isolation.

For sound proofing I am considering heavy drapes and corner traps.

NB - "acoustic treatment", not "soundproofing". Acoustic treatment controls the acoustics within a room but does little to soundproof it (stop sound from getting in and escaping the room) and vice versa. Bass traps are the single best thing you can do to any small room and the more the merrier. Drapes are better than nothing but unless your room looks like an old fashioned hall with tons (literally) of heavily backed velour drapes arranged in deep pleats. They are not really very effective for the space they take up. Far better to build a few absorbent panels from rigid fibreglass (usually 1.2m long x .6 wide and 5cm thick and spaced at least 2.5cm - preferably 5cm - from the walls), and place them at the key mirror points.

Badapple wrote: Seems like you are pretty informed in this field?

I've done my research. ? Helps that I'm planning on doing my own roof/ceiling this coming year and that has a similar structure, so have been thinking, scheming and researching a lot lately. Even re-read The Master Handbook of Acoustics for a third time, trying to get a little more of the theory to bludgeon its way through my skull (I struggle with the math)...

Thing is you have to know exactly what you are going to do before you start - one mistake in planning can compromise most of your work.

When I was still contemplating on building a garage-with-studio-underneath, I figured one could have quasi soundproof ventilation by putting in a long brick duct with some bends, cladding the interior walls of the duct with acoustic foam.
Is this how they do it in big studios, or else how is it done?

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:

Badapple wrote: Seems like you are pretty informed in this field?

I've done my research. ? Helps that I'm planning on doing my own roof/ceiling this coming year and that has a similar structure, so have been thinking, scheming and researching a lot lately. Even re-read The Master Handbook of Acoustics for a third time, trying to get a little more of the theory to bludgeon its way through my skull (I struggle with the math)...

Thing is you have to know exactly what you are going to do before you start - one mistake in planning can compromise most of your work.

Alan, wouldn't the most ideal situation be to build a room within a room? Of course its not always practical to do that, but, it doesn't sound like the most difficult thing to do either?

Adrian Rogowski wrote: Alan, wouldn't the most ideal situation be to build a room within a room? Of course its not always practical to do that, but, it doesn't sound like the most difficult thing to do either?

That's ideal yes, but if you have a situation where roof and window aren't very effective, it's overkill.

The walls will likely have an STC value of 45-50 (depending on exact construction) which is fine for the purpose, but the window and roof will likely only be 25ish (ie next to useless). Which means the whole structure will only have an STC of 25. Building a room inside will add about 6 or 7 to the STC rating, taking the structure up to about 31/32. On the other hand, laminated glass will take the windows up to at least 35-38 (or about 45 with glass bricks) and a layer of insulation with 6mm rhinoboard should bring the roof structure to about the same.

And no, you can't put a ceiling up and then build a room within a room adding a further 6dB isolation - strangely the ceiling will actually perform worse that way because of the triple leaf effect.

Gearhead wrote: When I was still contemplating on building a garage-with-studio-underneath, I figured one could have quasi soundproof ventilation by putting in a long brick duct with some bends, cladding the interior walls of the duct with acoustic foam.
Is this how they do it in big studios, or else how is it done?

(bump)

I am envious Mr Badapple.
You'll have to do install a ceiling. I would not be too worried about the window. Door, roof, floor and walls should get the treatment.

Gearhead wrote:

Gearhead wrote: When I was still contemplating on building a garage-with-studio-underneath, I figured one could have quasi soundproof ventilation by putting in a long brick duct with some bends, cladding the interior walls of the duct with acoustic foam.
Is this how they do it in big studios, or else how is it done?

(bump)

Sorry missed that somehow

I suspect you still need something to break up the airflow (probably largely the vents), which means you'll need a pressure differential to get air to flow, so it can't be passive. While lined ducting is often used, I suspect thats to stop the metal duct from resonating, rather than breaking up sound in the duct. I'll crack my studio building literature (The BBC manual has a lot of info on the topic) tonight and see what I can find out. A/C is something I need to learn about.

I know most smaller studios use domestic split AC units and just turn them off when tracking.

Hmmm... well, so far, I know how little I know about AC. Much more reading and digesting to do...

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: I know most smaller studios use domestic split AC units and just turn them off when tracking.

Somehow the oxygen will need to find its way in and the carbondioxide/moist/smell of band members a way out, don't they?

Gearhead wrote:

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: I know most smaller studios use domestic split AC units and just turn them off when tracking.

Somehow the oxygen will need to find its way in and the carbondioxide/moist/smell of band members a way out, don't they?

Yeah - one of the things I discovered last night is that split units don't usually add any fresh air to the system - only the full blown remote systems do. Beginning to think I should talk to an A/C pro...

As I understand the story with sound proofing, you have two options: reflection and damping. Damping needs absorbing materials and reflection needs mass. The thinking I had behind the long brick ducts is that the mass keeps the sound (ventilators from the AC outside and music from inside) inside the duct and give it plenty of times to bounce around. Every bounce means going through the damping material twice, yielding almost silence in the end.
After I had made a pair of Vifa Basis speakers (4 way with double 15" bins) I stuck my head into one of them and was amazed by the silence inside. And that's just 25mm MDF plus 40mm foam!