Specific Effects on Tube Amplifiers and How to Integrate Them (Delays / Reverb)?

Richard_

Right. So I've been busting my brains trying to get a grasp on this for some time now and thought I'd consult with the wise people of GFSA.

Specifically tubes amps and effects pedals i.e. delay or reverb pedals. Where to put them in the chain. This would take into consideration on how you utilize your amp, with regards to the pre-amp and power amp, Before? After? Gain affecting the delays/reverb? What actually happens to the signal?

The situation I'm currently in is that I have an ok tube amp (Still have a torn mind with regards to going digital...Kemper...Axe-FX...things like that, that mess up your mind, but is a different story) and then wanting to possibly buy a delay or reverb pedal, BUT the amp does not have an effects loop...

So before I waste my money, please help me from losing my sanity fellow peoples. Oh and thanx to Aja for sending me on this insanity roller-coaster! ?

Apologies if I only reply in the evenings, but feel free to discuss, hope this will be interesting ?

AlanRatcliffe

If you play with a fairly clean amp, your time-based fx can go anywhere, usually later in the chain or in the fx loop. Usually delay then reverb.

If you play with a dirty amp, you're going to want them in the loop or the amp will distort and compress the effects sounds. Just make sure if you have a line level loop that the effects can handle the relatively high levels (stomp boxes are usually instrument level and loops are more often than not line level and there is a big power difference between the two).

Richard_

Thanks, Alan. Ok yeah I'm quite interested in the delay, but yeah I don't have an fx loop section so will this then mess up my plans....what does it entail to incorporate a fx loop into an amp then?

AlanRatcliffe

Depending on the amp it can be quite difficult to add a loop - you'll have to consult an amp tech in your area for an idea of what is involved.

Otherwise, you can use delay and reverb into the front of your amp - you'll most likely want to use them more on the clean channel than the dirty anyway and turn them off when using amp drive.

Psean

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: If you play with a fairly clean amp, your time-based fx can go anywhere, usually later in the chain or in the fx loop. Usually delay then reverb.

If you play with a dirty amp, you're going to want them in the loop or the amp will distort and compress the effects sounds. Just make sure if you have a line level loop that the effects can handle the relatively high levels (stomp boxes are usually instrument level and loops are more often than not line level and there is a big power difference between the two).

A slight hijack - how does one know whether a given stompbox can handle line a level signal? The manual for my Aqua-puss delay says to put it in front of the amp and I would therefore assume that it is an instrument level effect. It also says to put it before any distortion units. This seems a bit strange though, seeing as it's a delay and conventional wisdom says delays go in the loop or after distortion.

AlanRatcliffe

Psean wrote: A slight hijack - how does one know whether a given stompbox can handle line a level signal?

If it does handle line level, they will say so - if they don't, assume not. The Eventide and Strymon stuff all does.

Psean

Thanks Alan ?

Warren

Richard_ wrote: Thanks, Alan. Ok yeah I'm quite interested in the delay, but yeah I don't have an fx loop section so will this then mess up my plans....what does it entail to incorporate a fx loop into an amp then?

What amp do you have, and what sort of tones do you want to create with the delay pedal?

aja

He has a Blackstar Artisan 30 combo

Warren

Opinions on this differ around here, but I personally can't live with reverb/delay in front of an over-driven amp (talking pre-amp drive here) - I tried before and it didn't work for me. The delay and reverb effects end up getting distorted and it sounds really awful. I ended up selling the amp and buying other stuff. Playing clean and getting all your drive from pedals is a different story, and that should work just fine. I found I could also get away with a certain amount of bite from the pre-amp (using a reverb pedal in front of the amp), before it became too mushy.

Considering that the Artisan 30 has some really stellar pre-amp gain tones, you're not going to be able to combine those with reverb/delay without a loop. But again: I only use my reverb and delay for my lead tone (and for clean stuff), so the settings are quite lush. I turn them off completely when playing chords with drive so that I get as much tightness and clarity as possible.

In terms of adding a loop: unless you're married to a particular amp, I'd assert that it's more convenient to just sell that amp and get one with a loop, if the loop is what you really want.

TL;DR:

- If you want to use overdrive on that amp with delay/reverb, consider an overdrive pedal as well, running the amp clean.
- When using the pre-amp drive, you'll want to turn the delay/reverb off.

Best idea: take the amp to a music store, plug in and test a few pedals out with it and decide for yourself.

ezietsman

Richard_ wrote: Right. So I've been busting my brains trying to get a grasp on this for some time now and thought I'd consult with the wise people of GFSA.

Specifically tubes amps and effects pedals i.e. delay or reverb pedals. Where to put them in the chain. This would take into consideration on how you utilize your amp, with regards to the pre-amp and power amp, Before? After? Gain affecting the delays/reverb? What actually happens to the signal?

The situation I'm currently in is that I have an ok tube amp (Still have a torn mind with regards to going digital...Kemper...Axe-FX...things like that, that mess up your mind, but is a different story) and then wanting to possibly buy a delay or reverb pedal, BUT the amp does not have an effects loop...

So before I waste my money, please help me from losing my sanity fellow peoples. Oh and thanx to Aja for sending me on this insanity roller-coaster! ?

Apologies if I only reply in the evenings, but feel free to discuss, hope this will be interesting ?

an OK tube amp? That thing is awesome. As Shreddy says, opinions differ. I have an 18 watt (kinda like a Blackstar Artisan 15's 12ax7 channel) and all its drive is from the power section. It has no effects loop. I run reverb and delay into the front. Yes, they get distorted when I open up my guitar's volume to get overdrive. It doesn't sound aweful at all, like cranking a deluxe reverb. My suggestion is the same Shreddy's but I'll add this idea for you to test. Running reverb delay into preamp drive is not the same as running it into a cranked up tube amp (and the Artisan 30 needs to be cranked quite a bit to drive if I remember correctly), however, that amp will be awefully loud like that. In the store, ask to try an attenuator, crank that amp's master to 8 or so, adjust gain knob to taste, attenuate it down to better levels, test reverbs and things. You may like it that way. This will of course depend on what sound you want in the end.

If you decide you don't like that, running the modulations into a clean amp after all the drive pedals will be almost indistinguishable from putting them in a loop.

Richard_

Alan
Once again thanx for the wisdom your cool. Will check it out. Maybe contact Karel or Jp for the tech side. Considered adding an fx loop, but by someone who knows how.

Psean
Thanx wanted to ask the same and you've covered it.

ShreddySmurf
Hehe, funny enough I was really captured by the solid clean tone of the amp (why I bought it in the first place) Experimenting with the overdrive combinations at the moment thus leading to the queries on the delay/ reverb... Thanx great idea, visit to the music store or... a pedal party get-to-gether eh eh!? Everyone having fun. Different flavors of amps and pedals to go around?

Ez
Thnx for the cool idea, that can work to test it out. I'm not seeking a particular sound just experimenting to find a tone I like. Playing around to achieve clean tones to crunch and if possible singing lead tones.

Aja
Thnx for covering for me there haha. Whats your opinion?

Overall:
> Selling is no option, too nice an amp,
> Only if Aja is possibly up for a swop hehe,
> Pedal party, anyone interested?