Pickups for an Acoustic Guitar

NorioDS

I have 2 acoustic guitars that I'd like to record and I'm not in the market to buy new ones - I just want to use these.

So I have 2 options, as I see it: 1) Record them on the BR600 using the built-in mics OR: 2) get pickups for them.

The first option is simple enough except that it means I need to make the house quiet and worry about things like the acoustics of a room. I'm not ready for that.

The second option... well I did that once with a cheap thing and it sounded horrible. I'm very sure there are better options out there - so I'm here looking for some edification please ? What can I do, both on a budget and, also, if budget wasn't a concern (but still without replacing the guitars).

DonRoos

There are three main types of pickup:
1) Microphone
2) Piezo Electric that must be built in under the bridge to pick up the vibrations
3) Magnetic Induction coil that need steel strings to work

By process of elimination, you have to go with a mic or piezo and you dont like the mic idea. Piezo pickups like the Fishman Classic 4T I built into my 12-string can be bought for around R1000 with a pre-amp. Then you have to remove the strings and bridge, drill a hole through the bridge slot, feed the pickup cable through the hole, replace the bridge after filing/sanding the bridge to adjust for the pickup, cut a hole in the side of the guitar and connect the pickup to the pre-amp, connect the pre-amp to a socket that you drill a hole for. Or you can get sombody to do it for you at a cost. You could also get a piezo pickup without the pre-amp but you will struggle with tone and volume. I had one of these before I replaced it and the tone on the 12 string was tinny and harsh and I had to crank the gain to hear it which caused some distortion.

If you are going for a cheep solution then this probably is not the way to go and you would be best off finding a quiet room and using the built in mics.

Bob-Dubery

I'm never sure what "budget" means. You don't say if these guitars are steel or nylon. You have more options with steel - things like the Baggs M1 or the Seymour Duncan "Woody" that clip into the soundhole and thus don't need much surgery. I heard an M1 in action recently and was quite impressed. My understanding is that it's a versatile piece of kit in that it has adjustable pole pieces which you can use to tailor the sound to a degree - close to the strings sounds more "electric", turn them down and you get more "air" in the tone.

The M1 is actually interesting. It's like a stacked humbucker, but the second coil is allowed some movement and thus colours the pickup's sound with vibrations that are picked up from the top. Various models there - the passive will be cheaper but you may need an external pre-amp. The active model takes a little watch battery and the pre-amp is built into the pickup casing.

Generally I'm a fan of Baggs. They offer a lot of options and also mix and match options. So they offer the "element" which is undersaddle and the "ibeam" which goes under the bridge plate, but also another system that combines both. I use the "dual source" which has the element with an internal condenser mike - that gives a good sound. The dual source is not their cheapest offering, so you don't have to spend that kind of tom.

If you have steel string guitars then the M1 requires fitting but not surgery. Plus you can move it between guitars (unless you get it "plumbed in"). That competes with things like the Dean Markley and the aforementioned "woody" from Duncan, but like I said, I heard one of these in action recently and thought it sounded pretty good.

NorioDS

Thanks for the replies guys ? One is a steel-string and the other is nylon (classical). Checking out these options on Google now. Thanks!

NorioDS

Thanks for the edification guys ?

I quite like the idea of option (2), Don. It seems like the option that will give me the most bang for my buck without replacing my guitars.

Bob, the pickups you described seem to fit into option (3) that Don described right?

Ray

For piezo you can go for under saddle or soundboard. I like the second like the k&k pickups. So go on over to the site below and order some piezo discs and wire and a strap button jack and you will have yourself a fair pickup for very little money and a bit of patience. But you know I am sure there are places in SA that sell this stuff. If I remember correctly they also sell the piezo elements that you can put under the saddle but I dont like that. There is also a preamp that you can get there. And if you solder like I do then maybe you want to get some help there as well.

https://www.cbgitty.com/cubecart/index.php

zohn

There is another type besides those already mentioned nl AST or acoustic soundboard transducer. My favourites of those are Baggs' I beam, B-Band's AST and K&K's Trinity Pure mini's. They comprise of 3 button-like Piezo's that are glued to the bridge plate inside the guitar similar to Taylor's Expression system. I like these because it is a straight forward no-nonsense plug-and-play setup.

My answer to your question though Norio, is microphones. It is no secret that for recording mics cover all the frequencies that an acoustic can deliver most accurately.

Since you mentioned that you don't want to go the sound-proofing route required for external mics, internal is my advice.
All the major pickup manufacturers have them available as combo's. I had a guitar with Fishman's Elipse Matrix blend system that was simply awesome, plugged in and recording. It is a combo of a mic and UST, with a soundhole operated preamp. It sells in the US for around $230.

Baggs's latest model in a Mic/UST combo, the "Anthem" gets rave reviews, and has excellent noise cancelling and feedback resistance features - it sells for $300.
They also have an older but very nice and reliable Mic/UST dual source system for $210.

Another brand that is famous for their mics/UST systems, is Highlander. They are expensive though.

A good solution for you might be a SEYMOUR DUNCAN's SA-6 MAG/MIC SOUNDHOLE PICKUP. It is also very affordable at $230. Magnetic pickups will only work with steel string guitars though.

These can all be viewed at Elderly's pages: http://elderly.com/new_instruments/cats/PUA.htm

A good web site to read some reviews with sound clips, is Doug Young's - http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/

The Aura acoustic image modeling systems from Fishman are apparently very good as well (from reading write-ups and reviews) - these have only got UST's (no mics).

AlanRatcliffe

zohn wrote: My answer to your question though Norio, is microphones. It is no secret that for recording mics cover all the frequencies that an acoustic can deliver most accurately.

+1. Live is a different story, but for recording, nothing comes close. Especially for nylon string guitars (which are fussy with USTs).

You don't have to do a complete job on the acoustics of the room, as long as the room sounds decent. Sit on a plush chair or couch when you record, or hang a blanket behind you. Especially with multi instrument recordings, ambient noise is less of a problem than it would be with a solo instrument.

The SE Electronics Instrument Reflexion Filters are really good at eliminating unwanted room noise from behind and to the sides of the mic - also they seem to be on special every time I look. http://www.seelectronics.com/IRF.html

Otherwise, if you must go pickups - Zohn's brand advice is pretty much spot on and comprehensive.

Bob-Dubery

Norio wrote: Thanks for the edification guys ?

I quite like the idea of option (2), Don. It seems like the option that will give me the most bang for my buck without replacing my guitars.

Bob, the pickups you described seem to fit into option (3) that Don described right?

The M1 and the Woody fit in there, yes, but they won't work with nylon strings.

If you only want to record, not play live, then I think a mic is the way to go. I refer to you some clips that Viccy has posted on this board, that she made with a mic she bought and a nylon string guitar, and that sound very good indeed.

I see 5 options actually
1) External mic
2) Internal mic
3) Piezo under saddle transducer (the sort of thing that gets fitted to a lot of flat tops these days)
4) Magnetic sound hole pickup (M1, woody, etc)
5) Contact pickups (K&K, Baggs ibeam, etc)

And then combinations of the above (the baggs systems I use combine (2) and (3) above with a little pre-amp module mounted inside the guitar). If you can't get enough (and neither can your credit card) then there are very good off-board pre-amps available (Baggs, D-Tar) or even specialised acoustic amps. It gets to be a game of "how much money do you want to spend" and there are sophisticated systems available at sophisticated prices.

To understand the broad strokes of acoustic guitar pickups, you might find this explanation by some bloke named Ratcliffe handy...
http://www.ratcliffe.co.za/articles/acoustic.shtml

NorioDS

Internal mic idea sounds spiffy ? I didn't realise there was such a thing!

Bob-Dubery

Norio wrote: Internal mic idea sounds spiffy ? I didn't realise there was such a thing!

They're usually used in conjunction with another source - typically an under saddle transducer or a sound hole mounted magnetic pick up. The system in my guitars combines the internal mic with an under saddle pickup. The mic gives more "air" to the sound.

Stoner-Riff

Sounds like Norio can do with a good sound hole pick up.

http://images.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&gbv=2&biw=1259&bih=603&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=acoustic+sound+hole+pick+ups

I am in the market for one myself right now.

zohn

For the record, Highlander and "Miniflex 2Mic" have stand-alone mic systems.

Ray

zohn wrote: For the record, Highlander and "Miniflex 2Mic" have stand-alone mic systems.

Are these available here?