Retail price with discount or lower sticker price?

Mr-M · 2011-06-29T15:25:39+00:00

There's been a lot of heated debate lately about SA prices for guitar gear. One of the things that kept coming up (aside from the obvious), is that a store's sticker price on the guitar/ amp/ pedal is always a non-discounted price. In other words you usually have to ask for your discounted price before you know what you'll pay. Some frustration was expressed at not being able to see up front what the price is just by looking at the price tag and some questions were raised as to why it is that way. The answer is simply because that's how it has always been. It's not like you can say to the guy in Incredible Connection that you saw the same laptop at Matrix for less and unless he beats the price, you walk. For non-guitar products, we usually find the product we want in the price range we're shopping in and pay the price without haggling. Strangely music shops still operate like 3rd world open air produce markets. The question to you, the average guitar player is this: would you prefer to see the lowest price advertised on the item up front? In other words, a similar system to the USA, where there is a Retail and Street Price - which is what you pay. I'm genuinely interested what guitarists out there think about this. Perhaps I can use your feedback to help change the industry for the better? Or do you prefer the current way of things - getting a good deal because the store gives you a discount? Many customers do genuinely prefer this, so if you're one of those, speak up. This is NOT ABOUT SA PRICES BEING TOO HIGH Therefore, no discussion on that please. It's been extensively covered elsewhere. Your opinions please?

Jack-Flash-Jr

Jacquesg4j wrote "What you loose on the bends you make up on the straights" - Maybe I am a little selfish, BUT I don't really care what other people pay that I don't know! If they paid too much for something... It's a cruel cruel world out there. As a sales person you always try to sell something at the highest possible price. If you have to charge your "once a year" customer more to get your "once a week" customer a better price, you will sell something to the same person once a week and it will work out more than the once a yearer! Everybody has to make money.

Seriously? WWJD?

ZarK

Jacquesg4j wrote
Norman86 wrote And regards summer sales, winter sales and the like...
If they are offering a 30% discount on the price, it still looks like its the "normal" or should i say actual retail price!
because if i buy when its NOT a sale, im getting 30% off the sticker price already!

So i should, when its a sale, be getting 60% off the sticker price shouldnt i?! because its a 30% off normal price sale!
Best way to figure it out would be to go to a shop before they have the sale and check what price they can give you, then go back when they have a sale and see what they charge you! But please tell me which shops will give me 30% off tag price when it is not on sale! Who does that?

25-30% is the norm with certain brand exceptions. I recently bought another amp. Sticker price R15 000 but I got them down to R9700. Thats more than 35% off after some shops said "it's impossible to sell it for any less than R11 500..." Clearly it was possible so I'm forced to write everything else that was said off as blatant dishonesty. Now I can take care of myself but how many noobs walk in and pay close to or full sticker price? At the regular discounted prices the shops are already making their fair share of profit, so why must they make an extra 20-30% profit on top of the profit they're entitled to -just because they could sucker an unsuspecting customer into paying more? Why must you first 'pay school fees' at our music shops until you eventually wisen up to the fact that you're being ripped off? This is only possible because here in SA we allow such dishonesty. Walk into a shop in Europe and you'll get the real price. Buy a number of things together and they'll give you a discount for a quantity purchase -which is fair. If some items are on special, it's clearly indicated next to the real price. Why must we settle for thumb-suck discounts that could be influenced by how much you spend, which sales person you deal with and this sales person's mood on the given day -all in one shop? That's not business! Give us the real prices. It'll also make some of our shop's websites more than useless when planning and budgeting for new gear as you will actually have something to work with instead of being forced to phone in for each and every price and then having to wait as long as you sometimes have to -if and when the sales person decides to phone you back...

Jacquesg4j

What Would Jacques Do?? ... That's what I said! HAHAHA

Jack-Flash-Jr

Jacquesg4j wrote What Would Jacques Do?? ... That's what I said! HAHAHA

Bob-Dubery

deefstes wrote Also, we're talking about retail here, not wholesale. I believe your example pertains to a wholesale deal - which obviously will be somewhat different from a retail setup.

Tell your music store you'll buy strings by the box and see what happens to the price you pay per set.

A question that someone has asked (I think Norman) and no-one seems to have answered so far is:
What makes music stores so special that they can't operate according to the retail principles of all other retailers in this country?

There is no one set of principles.

I know plenty of hardware stores where "trade" as opposed to DIYers get a better price. New car outlets typically have a price list they must work to for the car but they will look for other ways of making the deal sweet for you - bung in some accessories, or give you a good price on the vehicle that you're trading in. Some dealers will give you a discounted price on a SECOND car bought from them.

Norman86

Jacquesg4j wrote "What you loose on the bends you make up on the straights" - Maybe I am a little selfish, BUT I don't really care what other people pay that I don't know! If they paid too much for something... It's a cruel cruel world out there. As a sales person you always try to sell something at the highest possible price. If you have to charge your "once a year" customer more to get your "once a week" customer a better price, you will sell something to the same person once a week and it will work out more than the once a yearer! Everybody has to make money.

Well im against exploitation Jacques.

just because i buy from a place once a year doesnt mean i should pay more than sticker price.

and who has enough money to buy something from a music store every week??? come on, be realistic.

Trade discounts amount to wholesale, NOT RETAIL.
We arent buying from wholesalers, so again, the argument in favour of that is null and void in my eyes!
Music stores ARE retailers arent they?!
I already stated, its OBVIOUS that traders and people who buy in bulk will get discounts!

Warren wrote
PeteM wrote
I'm the same but I also like to know that the ticket price is the actual price and not some inflated price where I have to do the bargaining thing or "gratefully" accept a non-solicited discount. This does nothing for my ego.
I fully agree, and this is my sentiment too.

@Jack
I think I know which old dude you're talking about ?

@Norman
Pity about your experiences at MM Woodmead. I wouldn't say I'm regular enough for anyone to remember me, so I don't get any special treatment. I just generally like sales staff that enquire politely when I enter, and then leave me alone to do my thing until I need them. I get that there, and they answer my mail queries too. Unfortunate about the inconsistency.

I think there are some mixed messages here: I don't think anyone's arguing that discounts are inherently bad or unusual. They're an effective sales tool that can be used to close a deal. I also don't think there's anything wrong with regular customers being treated like old friends and getting an extra bit here or there.

But a 25%-30% "automatic" discount on everything is not actually the same thing, and it's not fooling anybody. If the store wants to offer a discount to a regular or a big buyer, that's different and can be negotiated on a case-by-case basis. A little fat built into the price (like 5%-10%) is ok, but running up to 30%? It's a bit silly, IMO. Stores can surely offer discounts to regulars and such without such large inflations of the sticker prices?

Funny enough, I walked passed a Jewelry shop the other day: engagement rings are often (at Brown's in particular) displayed with both the "regular" AND the "retail" price. I'm actually not so sure it's a good idea, going back on my previous thinking. You buy the 20k ring thinking it's worth 30k, when the reality is that, because EVERY store does this, you won't get even the 20k you paid if you try and sell it. If the two prices weren't so crazily different, it wouldn't be as big an issue...

exactly...
why must i see a sticker price of R8000+ on a line 6 hd500, when in reality, its not even worth $500, so make that R3500?!
Then i get a "discount" of 30% automatically which brigs the price down to a more appreciable level...

Nope, actual prices help a lot!
Then you would actually have to work on your client services instead of how much discount can be offered!

again, i use the example of:

Norman wroteNormans Music offers you a guitar valued at R10000.00, but you know what, for you, im gonna give you 50% off.
Skywalkers guitars marks the same guitar at R8000.00, but for you, 37.5 off...

Who are you going to buy from?? Normans Music because i offered you a better discount? please say you will!!!

ZarK wrote
Jacquesg4j wrote
Norman86 wrote And regards summer sales, winter sales and the like...
If they are offering a 30% discount on the price, it still looks like its the "normal" or should i say actual retail price!
because if i buy when its NOT a sale, im getting 30% off the sticker price already!

So i should, when its a sale, be getting 60% off the sticker price shouldnt i?! because its a 30% off normal price sale!
Best way to figure it out would be to go to a shop before they have the sale and check what price they can give you, then go back when they have a sale and see what they charge you! But please tell me which shops will give me 30% off tag price when it is not on sale! Who does that?

25-30% is the norm with certain brand exceptions. I recently bought another amp. Sticker price R15 000 but I got them down to R9700. Thats more than 35% off after some shops said "it's impossible to sell it for any less than R11 500..." Clearly it was possible so I'm forced to write everything else that was said off as blatant dishonesty. Now I can take care of myself but how many noobs walk in and pay close to or full sticker price? At the regular discounted prices the shops are already making their fair share of profit, so why must they make an extra 20-30% profit on top of the profit they're entitled to -just because they could sucker an unsuspecting customer into paying more? Why must you first 'pay school fees' at our music shops until you eventually wisen up to the fact that you're being ripped off? This is only possible because here in SA we allow such dishonesty. Walk into a shop in Europe and you'll get the real price. Buy a number of things together and they'll give you a discount for a quantity purchase -which is fair. If some items are on special, it's clearly indicated next to the real price. Why must we settle for thumb-suck discounts that could be influenced by how much you spend, which sales person you deal with and this sales person's mood on the given day -all in one shop? That's not business! Give us the real prices. It'll also make some of our shop's websites more than useless when planning and budgeting for new gear as you will actually have something to work with instead of being forced to phone in for each and every price and then having to wait as long as you sometimes have to -if and when the sales person decides to phone you back...

Again, well said!!!

X-rated Bob wrote
deefstes wrote Also, we're talking about retail here, not wholesale. I believe your example pertains to a wholesale deal - which obviously will be somewhat different from a retail setup.
Tell your music store you'll buy strings by the box and see what happens to the price you pay per set.

I know what will happen, i will pay the actual price for the strings!!!
Not the inflated price they would have you beleive it costs!

deefstes

X-rated Bob wroteI know plenty of hardware stores where "trade" as opposed to DIYers get a better price.

And I have absolutely no problem with that. But at every one of those hardware stores there will be a clear price tag under each stock item so that the DIYers can see how much the saw blade costs without having to ask a sales rep (and get a different price from every sales rep that he might ask).

Jacquesg4j

Just my word of advice... To everybody that does not know the name of a salesperson and nobody at the store knows your name, change it! It will change the way you look at price tags! Remember, the tag comes with the guitar, ask them how much they will charge you without the tag as you won't need it! It will settle another 1.3% discount in some instances!

But seriously, as a sales person it is a lot harder to sell something to a know-nothing-noob than to sell something to someone that know what they want. SO LET THE SALES PEOPLE GET A LITTLE REWARD FOR THEIR TROUBLES!!!

This debate makes me think of the hunting industry... I went hunting once with a friend of mine who is a PH and he had some Texans on a trip somewhere in Limpopo... I remember how annoying it was when the one asked us to stop at every single rooibok we saw just to ask us if it is a big one... Then my friend says that yes it is a very nice trophy, then the guy asks... Will we find a bigger one? To which my friend reply... You never know but I have seen bigger ones but this one is perfect for your trophy needs! Then he decides to not take it and look for a bigger one... He is wasting the other two hunters' time now... They don't want a rooibok but rather a Kudu... And when they shoot the rooibok, they pay in excess of R5000 for it... if my friend takes a South African hunter out to shoot a rooibok it would cost the hunter under 1k... Is this fair? Yes! Because the SA hunter sees the first acceptable one and then takes it... The american let 10 acceptable rooibok go, then my friend has to go through much more effort to find the "PERFECT" one.

Norman86

Jacquesg4j wrote But seriously, as a sales person it is a lot harder to sell something to a know-nothing-noob than to sell something to someone that know what they want. SO LET THE SALES PEOPLE GET A LITTLE REWARD FOR THEIR TROUBLES!!!

No it isnt... Sales people can spin the world and the know for nothing noob will lap it up, and pay the price!

Bob-Dubery

Norman86 wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
deefstes wrote Also, we're talking about retail here, not wholesale. I believe your example pertains to a wholesale deal - which obviously will be somewhat different from a retail setup.
Tell your music store you'll buy strings by the box and see what happens to the price you pay per set.
I know what will happen, i will pay the actual price for the strings!!!
Not the inflated price they would have you beleive it costs!

I can't agree with the motives that you are ascribing here. I think we both agree that you will get strings cheaper by the box.

Think back to the example I gave earlier - the VCRs. Now Tedelex would have eventually sold those VCRs anyway, so why were they flexible on pricing?

Simple.

If they bring in 1000 VCRs and stick them in a warehouse and sell them as the orders come in they have to pay the cost of warehousing and also each of those VCRs is a little pile of money sitting in your warehouse that you can't use for anything. It could be in a bank earning interest. You could be using it to buy new stock. You could be paying your staff. All sorts of things. But you can't spend that money because it's sitting in your warehouse in the form of stock.

So somebody comes along and says "I'll buy the whole lot now but I want a discounted price" you sit down and you negotiate with them, because the cash is going to get back into your bank account a lot quicker.

This is a big aspect of the retail musical instrument business. We know, for example, that high-end guitars are not cheap items. So the store gets the stock in and it sits in their show room (money lying around where you can't use it again) until somebody buys it. So if somebody is buying that sort of item regularly, or if they come in and say they want to buy 2 of them and a nice amplifier too then you give them a consideration for that because, quite simply, they are converting that stock back into money that you can use and they're converting more of it and they're converting it quicker. You don't just tell them they can pay the total of the sticker prices.

theantirockstar

part of it has got to do with commission. most of the guys in these stores are earning peanuts as a basic salary. the 'discount' that they give is all about potential commission that they earn. it's an incentive to make them sell. in the end it's all business. Oversea they earn a decent wage so there's no need for the haggle there. it's frustrating i know, but thats they state of the industry. hopefully it will change.

Bob-Dubery

Norman86 wrote
Jacquesg4j wrote But seriously, as a sales person it is a lot harder to sell something to a know-nothing-noob than to sell something to someone that know what they want. SO LET THE SALES PEOPLE GET A LITTLE REWARD FOR THEIR TROUBLES!!!
No it isnt... Sales people can spin the world and the know for nothing noob will lap it up, and pay the price!

Sometimes.

This is more likely to happen in shops where the sales staff get paid on a commission basis. This is happens in some shops but it is not universal. I know, for example, that McGibbon's don't pay their staff on a commission basis, so they have rather less inclination to sell you stuff you don't need at as high a price as possible.

There is also the matter of scruples. I am sure that there are indeed sales persons who will take advantage of an inexperienced customer, but that kind of sales person is not the only kind of sales person and most of them will not take advantage of such a situation.

Jacquesg4j

Norman86 wrote
Jacquesg4j wrote But seriously, as a sales person it is a lot harder to sell something to a know-nothing-noob than to sell something to someone that know what they want. SO LET THE SALES PEOPLE GET A LITTLE REWARD FOR THEIR TROUBLES!!!
No it isnt... Sales people can spin the world and the know for nothing noob will lap it up, and pay the price!

Yep... Pay the price that I will pay less! Only thing what this means is... ITS A GOOD SALES GUY! HE did his job and sold stuff! Maybe sold it for more than the bone cut minimum acceptable, but hey, that's the world! Is it dishonest? NO! Dishonest would have been making the noob believe that an Epiphone is the same as a Gibson but it only costs a little less!

deefstes

Jacquesg4j wroteDishonest would have been making the noob believe that an Epiphone is the same as a Gibson but it only costs a little less!

Why is that dishonest? Or shall I ask, why is that more dishonest than making a noob believe a guitar is worth R10k when it's only worth R7k? Both are lies, both are dishonest.

chris77

I would think it's harder to sell something to a seasoned player who knows what he's looking and what it's worth, and how to play the Lets See How Much I Can Knock Of The Price game, than to a noob who brings his mom to the store to buy the product for him/her. Surely they should be charging more for the negotiation time and effort, not less? So I'm still not buying why my price for the exact same item should be more than the oke who plays drums with the managers nephew's new girfriends dad. Doesn't make sense. Why expect me, the cassual customer, to subsidize somebody elses GAS?

Bob-Dubery

deefstes wrote
X-rated Bob wroteI know plenty of hardware stores where "trade" as opposed to DIYers get a better price.
And I have absolutely no problem with that. But at every one of those hardware stores there will be a clear price tag under each stock item so that the DIYers can see how much the saw blade costs without having to ask a sales rep (and get a different price from every sales rep that he might ask).

Whatever. My point was that there is no one way of doing retail business. This is the problem with this debate - there's an assumption that everybody bar music stores does business in the same way.

They don't.

There are other types of business where the price you pay depends in part on who you are or how hard a bargain you can drive.

deefstes

X-rated Bob wrote
deefstes wrote
X-rated Bob wroteI know plenty of hardware stores where "trade" as opposed to DIYers get a better price.
And I have absolutely no problem with that. But at every one of those hardware stores there will be a clear price tag under each stock item so that the DIYers can see how much the saw blade costs without having to ask a sales rep (and get a different price from every sales rep that he might ask).
Whatever. My point was that there is no one way of doing retail business. This is the problem with this debate - there's an assumption that everybody bar music stores does business in the same way.

They don't.

There are other types of business where the price you pay depends in part on who you are or how hard a bargain you can drive.

Fair enough. I can agree that not all retail businesses operate in the same way. I guess what bothers me is not the knowledge that another buyer is advantaged through his personal relationship with the manager or his regular custom but rather the knowledge that I am disadvantaged through my lack of personal relationship and irregular custom.

I'd like to know that difference between the price I pay and the price Mr. Regular Customer pays is because of him being advantaged but I can't help to think that it is because of me being disadvantaged. It doesn't have to be like this but I think it is.

Jacquesg4j

I have to add... In my daily job I do a lot of ordering things and buying and related stuff... No matter what I do, my boss wants me to buy the stuff at the lowest possible price no matter what! He sends me to Makro to go buy a certain printer, but not at the advertised price, but rather a discounted price. So when I go to Makro, I have to find the sales manager and negotiate a better price with him... I have bought a printer with a shelf price of 2800 for 2400 from them without much hassle...

It's an age old tradition...

Buyer: How much?
Seller: 100
Buyer: How about 50?
Seller: 75
Buyer: SOLD!

exsanguinator

5 pages and counting...so i'll give my 2c worth...
The Recommended Retail Price[RRP]is the price set by suppliers to retailers as a recommendation...in 9/10 cases if not 10/10 is the maximum price on the item in the shop.

Although not illegal,it is not recomended to sell above that price or advertise a higher price.
In saying that,for example a guitar with a RRP of R4999,should have this price or lower country wide.
The retailer gets his discount off the RRP and the diffeence between the RRP and his actual cost is the margin of profit the retailer must calculate,factoring in rental,salaries,comm,freight etc etc.
The retailer can sell the guitar at any price he wants to,in most cases its above his actual purchase price,or he wont be in business for long.

It is ILLEGAL,for any wholesaler to say how much an item can be sold at,this constitutes price fixing,
It is ILLEGAL for a wholesaler to not supply a pre existing customer because he can afford selling at a much lower profit that anyone else in that industry.
any complaints to relevant authorities with regards to above will be followed up.

Your job as a customer is to either pay the RRP if haggling is not your thing....
or ask for a discount.
The price differences in every shop is irrevelant if the most expensive price advertised is the RRP and not higher.
The RRP is avaliable to the public for every product sold in RSA,just phone the suppliers/importers/wholesalers etc...then make your own mind up....
if the price in that shop is over the RRP...it is dishonest...shop elsewhere...
or calculate your own %'s of the RRP that you allready obtained and make sure you are getting a fair discount to suit your needs and urgency to have that product

vic

This a lekka thread Mr T ? Are you any wiser by now ? ?

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