Retail price with discount or lower sticker price?

Mr-M · 2011-06-29T15:25:39+00:00

There's been a lot of heated debate lately about SA prices for guitar gear. One of the things that kept coming up (aside from the obvious), is that a store's sticker price on the guitar/ amp/ pedal is always a non-discounted price. In other words you usually have to ask for your discounted price before you know what you'll pay. Some frustration was expressed at not being able to see up front what the price is just by looking at the price tag and some questions were raised as to why it is that way. The answer is simply because that's how it has always been. It's not like you can say to the guy in Incredible Connection that you saw the same laptop at Matrix for less and unless he beats the price, you walk. For non-guitar products, we usually find the product we want in the price range we're shopping in and pay the price without haggling. Strangely music shops still operate like 3rd world open air produce markets. The question to you, the average guitar player is this: would you prefer to see the lowest price advertised on the item up front? In other words, a similar system to the USA, where there is a Retail and Street Price - which is what you pay. I'm genuinely interested what guitarists out there think about this. Perhaps I can use your feedback to help change the industry for the better? Or do you prefer the current way of things - getting a good deal because the store gives you a discount? Many customers do genuinely prefer this, so if you're one of those, speak up. This is NOT ABOUT SA PRICES BEING TOO HIGH Therefore, no discussion on that please. It's been extensively covered elsewhere. Your opinions please?

Mr-M

vic wrote BUT someone on Gumtree is currently selling the same cab for R3000.

Funny - this someone is a very good friend of mine. Actually I use his studio as a practice room for my band, so I see the cab every Saturday. It is in excellent condition BTW.

(Apologies Mr T, I know this thread is not about how much we pay for gear in SA, but it goes hand in hand with sticker prices).

No problem. ? Consider yourself politely scolded. ?

Jacquesg4j

Norman86 wrote I have been asked to be nice...
Jaqcues, i disagree completely with you.

Exploitation is a bad thing.
the norm is AT LEAST 30%, very rarely under that! Unless as Jack has said, the poor kid with his first guitar gets shafted and only gets 10%, or ends up paying the "full" price!

I agree with Singe and wizard above wholeheartedly too!!!

and yet, no one has answered on this very point i made:

Norman wrotebecause there is nothing worse than the music shop having a sale, but you're actually paying the same price!
you see 30% off all items in store... so, with the current trend, is that then an extra 30% off of the 30% you would have gotten?? i dont think so! more like normal retail to me!

Nomran, I can see that you don't agree with me, maybe because you have not yet experienced what I experience. Will you go out and buy your first car with no knowledge about cars and what they go for and just trust the sales person that you are meeting for the first time? I WONT!! I will take someone with that has experience in the field! Don't ever buy anything without doing proper research! If there are people doing it and Mommies taking kids to buy stuff without doing research themselves, so be it, pay it!

Concerning your Q about the sales things... If you go out in normal non sale times and buy a Gibson LP or Fender Strat anniversary or something high end, the sales guy won't give you the 30% discount he gave you on your Ernie Ball Slinkies, because the markup on strings are higher than on the expensive stuff! They can afford a higher discount on strings than what they can on expensive things because they don't mark the expensive stuff up on the same margain as the cheap stuff. A 505 markup on strings may be the issue of, they buy for 50 and sell for 75... if it were the same for something they buy for 20k, they would make 10k on it, and we all know that is not the case! If they buy a Gibson for R15k and sell it for R20k on the tag, it is a 33% markup, so if they offer 30% discount on it, they would sell it for R20k minus 30 % whick is R14k...

Does this make sence?

vic

Mr T wrote
vic wrote BUT someone on Gumtree is currently selling the same cab for R3000.
Funny - this someone is a very good friend of mine. Actually I use his studio as a practice room for my band, so I see the cab every Saturday. It is in excellent condition BTW.
(Apologies Mr T, I know this thread is not about how much we pay for gear in SA, but it goes hand in hand with sticker prices).
No problem. ? Consider yourself politely scolded. ?

Ja,... I know...and a great price too....saw a few pics of it. Fortunately I found a vintage cab closer to home.

Warren

I find that the price of goods is only part of what keeps me loyal to a store.

Perhaps the single most over-riding thing for me is convenience and location. MM in Woodmead is the easiest of the stores for me to get to generally, so I'm there most often.

I also like the general attitude of the sales guys: they're helpful and friendly and I can plug in anything I want for as long as I like. I realise other stores do this too, but there's no need for me to drive out somewhere further if I can get the same service closer.

I actually don't mind paying a little extra if I'm getting good advice and service. I'm simply not the type of person to shop around relentlessly for the best possible deal: once I've found one that's within my parameters of acceptability, I'll take it. Of course, I'm not spending hundreds of thousands of Rands so my perspective is simpler.

ZarK

The inflated sticker prices of music shops is a farce. It serves peeps with experience who are willing/able to negotiate and leaves the inexperienced unashamedly ripped off. It’s a disgraceful marketing practice imo. You should not be able to walk into the same store on three different occasions and get three totally different prices for the same item. Also, loyalty cuts two ways and each of the majour stores in the Cape Town area needs to look up the definition for they are clueless to the matter irrespective of how many thousands you spend with them. In my experience 'loyalty' doesn't even necessarily equate to better service. I’ve been taking my business to the smaller stores of late, where integrity and loyalty still has meaning and carries weight…

vic

X-rated Bob wrote
chris77 wrote Well, if I need to be connected to enjoy the privilege of a good 'discount', then count me out. That just strenghtens my perception that the consumers that aren't part of the club is being exploited. (Great if you're in the circle, not so great if you're not hey.) .
Chris, it's not like that at all. If I see you coming into my shop on a regular basis I give you a consideration in appreciation of your loyalty. Simple.

A manager/salesperson should appreciate each and every potential client that walks in and give each one the best deal possible. That will ensure that these walk-ins will come back at another time and do more business. Remember store A is not doing me a favour by selling me whatever....I'm the one with the cash who could just as well spend it at store B.

Norman86

Jacquesg4j wrote
Norman, I can see that you don't agree with me, maybe because you have not yet experienced what I experience. Will you go out and buy your first car with no knowledge about cars and what they go for and just trust the sales person that you are meeting for the first time? I WONT!! I will take someone with that has experience in the field! Don't ever buy anything without doing proper research! If there are people doing it and Mommies taking kids to buy stuff without doing research themselves, so be it, pay it!

Concerning your Q about the sales things... If you go out in normal non sale times and buy a Gibson LP or Fender Strat anniversary or something high end, the sales guy won't give you the 30% discount he gave you on your Ernie Ball Slinkies, because the markup on strings are higher than on the expensive stuff! They can afford a higher discount on strings than what they can on expensive things because they don't mark the expensive stuff up on the same margain as the cheap stuff. A 505 markup on strings may be the issue of, they buy for 50 and sell for 75... if it were the same for something they buy for 20k, they would make 10k on it, and we all know that is not the case! If they buy a Gibson for R15k and sell it for R20k on the tag, it is a 33% markup, so if they offer 30% discount on it, they would sell it for R20k minus 30 % whick is R14k...

Does this make sence?

Its exactly these people getting the most shaft! Sorry, i dont agree!
They rely on the salesmen to be honest and give the best advice!
they dont see the sticker price and go, oh, i wonder what the discount is, the price they see is the price they pay!
Its how it should be! but i dont agree that you must get shafted in the process!
Which is why if everyone saw the real price, there would be no hassles!
No, but jannie got a cheaper price, why dont i?!

As warren said, price is only PART of the equation.
They can still offer great service too!
This is what makes MY mind up.
And convenience.
I have not experienced Warrens convenience at MM woodmead.
Probably because im not one of their regulars, i dont get good service!
Not a problem though, their prices are expensive imo and because i dont like their service and how they treat me, and know i can get it cheaper somewhere, i dont bother going there!
As i have also said, they dont even have the decency to answer emails, so why must i buy from them?

I dont get the service, they dont get the sale! Regardless of price, what im buying or who im buying from!
and again, i dont see the need to haggle. we are not a middle eastern country or an eastern country where its the norm and customary.
So they might as well follow all other SA retail practices.
Music shops are NOT special imo, they do not need to have their own rules!
I can go into any retail store, see what i want, hold it, feel it etc, and make my mind up whether i want it or not!
If the price is right, the location is right, the service is right, there will be a sale!
And all that, with a sticker price that's the CORRECT price to start off with!

This is also part of the reason people buy online. The price they see is the price they pay, no mess, no fuss!

ZarK wrote The inflated sticker prices of music shops is a farce. It serves peeps with experience who are willing/able to negotiate and leaves the inexperienced unashamedly ripped off. It’s a disgraceful marketing practice imo. You should not be able to walk into the same store on three different occasions and get three totally different prices for the same item. Also, loyalty cuts two ways and each of the majour stores in the Cape Town area needs to look up the definition for they are clueless to the matter irrespective of how many thousands you spend with them. In my experience 'loyalty' doesn't even necessarily equate to better service. I’ve been taking my business to the smaller stores of late, where integrity and loyalty still has meaning and carries weight…

Well said!!!

Norman86

And regards summer sales, winter sales and the like...
If they are offering a 30% discount on the price, it still looks like its the "normal" or should i say actual retail price!
because if i buy when its NOT a sale, im getting 30% off the sticker price already!

So i should, when its a sale, be getting 60% off the sticker price shouldnt i?! because its a 30% off normal price sale!

Jacquesg4j

Norman86 wrote And regards summer sales, winter sales and the like...
If they are offering a 30% discount on the price, it still looks like its the "normal" or should i say actual retail price!
because if i buy when its NOT a sale, im getting 30% off the sticker price already!

So i should, when its a sale, be getting 60% off the sticker price shouldnt i?! because its a 30% off normal price sale!

Best way to figure it out would be to go to a shop before they have the sale and check what price they can give you, then go back when they have a sale and see what they charge you! But please tell me which shops will give me 30% off tag price when it is not on sale! Who does that?

Norman86

Jacquesg4j wrote
Norman86 wrote And regards summer sales, winter sales and the like...
If they are offering a 30% discount on the price, it still looks like its the "normal" or should i say actual retail price!
because if i buy when its NOT a sale, im getting 30% off the sticker price already!

So i should, when its a sale, be getting 60% off the sticker price shouldnt i?! because its a 30% off normal price sale!
Best way to figure it out would be to go to a shop before they have the sale and check what price they can give you, then go back when they have a sale and see what they charge you! But please tell me which shops will give me 30% off tag price when it is not on sale! Who does that?

All of them! Thats why there is this discussion! ?

Mr-M

Jacquesg4j wrote ...different things have higher mark-ups and allow higher discounts!

It's a bingo! :applause: Movie reference there...

Conversely other things have very low markups and allow for very little discount or none at all.

It's just worth noting...

Norman86

Mr T wrote
Jacquesg4j wrote ...different things have higher mark-ups and allow higher discounts!
It's a bingo! :applause: Movie reference there...

Conversely other things have very low markups and allow for very little discount or none at all.

It's just worth noting...

Look, we dont deny that! But if the correct price is on the sticker to start off with, then people dont worry about what "discount" they get!

Discounts are for wholesale and "specials". Not every time you walk into a store and get a different price on the same item from each person in the store!

Should we then play the salesmen in the (same) store off against each other until we get a price we're happy with? Thats immoral!

Put the correct price on in the beginning, no questions asked!
People are happy to pay the price they see on goods, and if they arent, they move along!

Jack-Flash-Jr

Had this experience this morning, was in MM at Woodmead (not my regular store obviously, since I live in CT but the guys know my face) wanting to get a case... the service rep did the "well that's the price, but only for you, since we were at school together" (he's 30 years older than me) spiel and I got 45% off. He is obviously self-aware that this is a crock and kind of nudge nudge winked when he said it.
Thanks for the discount but I don't feel lucky, I just feel like I have no idea what the case really costs. Disclaimer: I like the guys there, they're friendly and helpful and would probably, despite my rant in my previous post, pass on the discount to noobs as well... in which case, again, what's the point of the inflated tag?

Bob-Dubery

vic wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
chris77 wrote Well, if I need to be connected to enjoy the privilege of a good 'discount', then count me out. That just strenghtens my perception that the consumers that aren't part of the club is being exploited. (Great if you're in the circle, not so great if you're not hey.) .
Chris, it's not like that at all. If I see you coming into my shop on a regular basis I give you a consideration in appreciation of your loyalty. Simple.
A manager/salesperson should appreciate each and every potential client that walks in and give each one the best deal possible. That will ensure that these walk-ins will come back at another time and do more business. Remember store A is not doing me a favour by selling me whatever....I'm the one with the cash who could just as well spend it at store B.

The world and business don't work that way. You give your regular deal to a casual customer, you give better deals to regular customers or to people who are spending significant money.

You know those stores that advertise that their price on some item or another can't be beat? How do you think they do that? I'll tell you one way that happens. Back in the 80s I used to work for Tedelex who were then, amongst other things, the Sony distributors for Africa south of the equator. One of these discount stores came to them and said they wanted a special price on Sony Betamax VCRs (remember Betamax?). Tedelex said "OK... we'll give you the price that you're looking for BUT you have to promise to buy our entire next shipment at that unit price." The deal was done. Tedelex chartered a 747, filled it with VCRs and the discount store, as per the agreement, bought the lot.

The store were making a non-trivial contribution to Tedelex's cash flow. In return they got a better unit price than the small store who would buy 3 or 4 units.

Discounts for regular trade or large volumes are simply prudent business practice. They don't amount to a snub to or exploitation of the smaller, casual customer.

Bob-Dubery

Norman86 wrote Which is why if everyone saw the real price, there would be no hassles!
No, but jannie got a cheaper price, why dont i?!

Jannie is a regular customer?

Jannie is a guitar teacher who sends us a lot of business?

This is the flip side of the coin. Try to see things from the point of view of the shop. Jannie is a good customer, regularly buying accessories and occasionally buying instruments and they want to keep him coming back to THEIR store rather than take his custom somewhere else. So they give him a better deal.

PeteM

Warren wrote I actually don't mind paying a little extra if I'm getting good advice and service. I'm simply not the type of person to shop around relentlessly for the best possible deal: once I've found one that's within my parameters of acceptability, I'll take it. Of course, I'm not spending hundreds of thousands of Rands so my perspective is simpler.

I'm the same but I also like to know that the ticket price is the actual price and not some inflated price where I have to do the bargaining thing or "gratefully" accept a non-solicited discount. This does nothing for my ego.

deefstes

X-rated Bob wrote
vic wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
chris77 wrote Well, if I need to be connected to enjoy the privilege of a good 'discount', then count me out. That just strenghtens my perception that the consumers that aren't part of the club is being exploited. (Great if you're in the circle, not so great if you're not hey.) .
Chris, it's not like that at all. If I see you coming into my shop on a regular basis I give you a consideration in appreciation of your loyalty. Simple.
A manager/salesperson should appreciate each and every potential client that walks in and give each one the best deal possible. That will ensure that these walk-ins will come back at another time and do more business. Remember store A is not doing me a favour by selling me whatever....I'm the one with the cash who could just as well spend it at store B.
The world and business don't work that way. You give your regular deal to a casual customer, you give better deals to regular customers or to people who are spending significant money.

You know those stores that advertise that their price on some item or another can't be beat? How do you think they do that? I'll tell you one way that happens. Back in the 80s I used to work for Tedelex who were then, amongst other things, the Sony distributors for Africa south of the equator. One of these discount stores came to them and said they wanted a special price on Sony Betamax VCRs (remember Betamax?). Tedelex said "OK... we'll give you the price that you're looking for BUT you have to promise to buy our entire next shipment at that unit price." The deal was done. Tedelex chartered a 747, filled it with VCRs and the discount store, as per the agreement, bought the lot.

The store were making a non-trivial contribution to Tedelex's cash flow. In return they got a better unit price than the small store who would buy 3 or 4 units.

Discounts for regular trade or large volumes are simply prudent business practice. They don't amount to a snub to or exploitation of the smaller, casual customer.

Sure, it's called buying in bulk and that would get you a discount most anywhere. But why hide the price to start off with? Put a sticker on the product so that I can see what it costs and then, if you choose to give me a discount, I actually know how much discount I received. Like Jack Flash pointed out, he received a whopping discount on a guitar case - but no-one actually knows how much he really got.

Also, we're talking about retail here, not wholesale. I believe your example pertains to a wholesale deal - which obviously will be somewhat different from a retail setup.

A question that someone has asked (I think Norman) and no-one seems to have answered so far is:
What makes music stores so special that they can't operate according to the retail principles of all other retailers in this country?

chris77

Sho, lots of passionate opinions. ? I would just like to highlight again that my point of view is based on my Perception of how it works, not any inside experience of the industry's workings. Unfortunately my Perception is cast in stone at the moment and no points raised have managed to change it. I hate the thought that my price at the counter is based on how often I go to the store or how well I get along with the assistant or manager. Or even worse, who I can namecheck to get a better deal. Naah, give me the price and be straightforward about any factors that will influence it so that I can make an informed decision where I will spend my money, which btw is online and in the classifieds at the moment. Mainly because my local stores sell crap, but also because phoning a big city store for pricing is almost as futile as visiting their websites. There are exceptions, I have corresponded and have good dealings with Andy's and Tuerk in the past, but have never been to their stores in person. So no loyalty points for me there hey...

Jacquesg4j

"What you loose on the bends you make up on the straights" - Maybe I am a little selfish, BUT I don't really care what other people pay that I don't know! If they paid too much for something... It's a cruel cruel world out there. As a sales person you always try to sell something at the highest possible price. If you have to charge your "once a year" customer more to get your "once a week" customer a better price, you will sell something to the same person once a week and it will work out more than the once a yearer! Everybody has to make money.

Warren

PeteM wrote
I'm the same but I also like to know that the ticket price is the actual price and not some inflated price where I have to do the bargaining thing or "gratefully" accept a non-solicited discount. This does nothing for my ego.

I fully agree, and this is my sentiment too.

@Jack
I think I know which old dude you're talking about ?

@Norman
Pity about your experiences at MM Woodmead. I wouldn't say I'm regular enough for anyone to remember me, so I don't get any special treatment. I just generally like sales staff that enquire politely when I enter, and then leave me alone to do my thing until I need them. I get that there, and they answer my mail queries too. Unfortunate about the inconsistency.

I think there are some mixed messages here: I don't think anyone's arguing that discounts are inherently bad or unusual. They're an effective sales tool that can be used to close a deal. I also don't think there's anything wrong with regular customers being treated like old friends and getting an extra bit here or there.

But a 25%-30% "automatic" discount on everything is not actually the same thing, and it's not fooling anybody. If the store wants to offer a discount to a regular or a big buyer, that's different and can be negotiated on a case-by-case basis. A little fat built into the price (like 5%-10%) is ok, but running up to 30%? It's a bit silly, IMO. Stores can surely offer discounts to regulars and such without such large inflations of the sticker prices?

Funny enough, I walked passed a Jewelry shop the other day: engagement rings are often (at Brown's in particular) displayed with both the "regular" AND the "retail" price. I'm actually not so sure it's a good idea, going back on my previous thinking. You buy the 20k ring thinking it's worth 30k, when the reality is that, because EVERY store does this, you won't get even the 20k you paid if you try and sell it. If the two prices weren't so crazily different, it wouldn't be as big an issue...

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