I'd A/B them. They're VERY similar amps. I personally think the princeton with a alnico gold in (sounds like you can get your tech to stick a 12" speaker in) will be great. Single channel, smaller footprint, lighter and if you do eventually go to something like the gold, it'll probably a touch louder than the deluxe, but fatter and more mids.

I know nothing about the Jnr though so can't offer advice there.

Princeton and Deluxe are very close. People with either rarely sell them - trust me, I've been keeping my eyes open for a Deluxe for a looong time. For the bigger stages, Pro engineers love seeing a Princeton or Deluxe equipped guitarist, because they know that you'll basically use it only as your guitar monitor, it will sound great miked up and they won't have to fight to balance what's coming off the stage with the house PA.

The Deluxe is my all-time favourite gigging amp 'cos it sounds really good and is loud enough to hang with all but the loudest of bands without miking up anything but vocals and kick. The sweet spot (where you can control drive with playing dynamics) is a perfect fit volume-wise for most medium size venues and still gives you a little room to mic up and add a touch of guitar to the mains, purely for coverage. Plus obviously on bigger stages you just put more through the PA and still keep stage volumes sane and balanced with your bandmates volumes. The 12" speaker gives it a bigger, slightly looser low end and a sweeter, less percussive high end than the Princeton, which is punchier and more percussive. Plus the Deluxe has probably my favourite bluesy, edge of drive tone.

What it all boils down to with the BF amps is they are all tonally very much in the same ballpark, but you use what's best suited volume-wise for the application. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the impression that even when you play with a drummer and vocalist, it's on the quieter side. So I think for your application and what you want to achieve, the Princeton makes the most sense. Perfect volume for small solo gigs to quieter blues jazz ensembles and once again, as the venues get larger, you just put more and more through the PA.

Speak to your shop, tell them you definitely want one or the other, ask if you can buy the Princeton, with an option to upgrade to the Deluxe within a week or two if you find it doesn't quite do the job, volume-wise (and look after it). They will usually go for that kind of deal if they know you well - a definite sale with a chance to upgrade it to a higher priced model within a week or two. Win-win...

I've owned 3 Blues Jnrs. 2 Black models (with the more recent white PCB) and an original Tweed model (with the original green PCB). The Tweed killed the other 2. I have a real love for Fender amps, and my pick for gigging club amp is my Deluxe Reverb (btw I see you mentioned Blues Deluxe a couple of times ... I saw on your other thread too), but the Blues Deluxe (which I've also owned) is not a patch on the Deluxe Reverb. Obviously you're talking about the Deluxe Reverb since it's the 1x12" 22watt that you mentioned here. If budget and size is a concern, I would urge you to go try a Super Champ XD. It has a solid-state (modelling) pre-amp and a valve power amp. Don't let that put you off ... go take a listen ... it's a great little amp. I bought one because I thought it was a great substitute for a Deluxe Reverb, but shortly afterwards I was offered a great deal on the Deluxe Reverb new and snapped it up ... otherwise I'd still have been quite happy with the Super Champ XD.

MoJo JoJoe wrote: ... otherwise I'd still have been quite happy with the Super Champ XD.

And I am still delighted with that same Super Champ XD amp ... ?

Hi Keira,
You said in previous conversations that you also wanted to have a "CD in", and on the deluxe you might be able to do that through the normal channel.
Then again, there is a weight issue for you, and the princeton has less and lighter metal in it(transformers are small and no choke). The princeton also has an issue of farting out at heavy overdrive, but that might not be a problem for you.
That fartiness is due the cathodyne phase inverter but one simple resister modded into circuit fixes that problem. The princeton also doesn't have a dry/wet mixing valve and instead goes straight to the phase inverter. The deluxe has and therefore has a stronger "gain" in the preamp.
Interesting that it is similar price to deluxe but has less valves, less metal and smaller speaker?
I hope that you find what you are looking for.

I do find the Princeton to be overpriced, especially when compared to the Deluxe.

I don't mind the lighter iron in the Princeton, it's understandable in a smaller amp and part of the sound.

BTW Keira: http://articles.guitarforum.co.za/reviews/review-fender-%E2%80%9965-princeton-reverb-amplifier

Or you could get one built for you..

Wizard wrote:

MoJo JoJoe wrote: ... otherwise I'd still have been quite happy with the Super Champ XD.

And I am still delighted with that same Super Champ XD amp ... ?

The Super Champ sparkles and could not be turned down enough at last weeks gig (!)... I kid you not, it was on 2.5 and more than kept up with drums etc.

Jack Flash Jr wrote:

Wizard wrote:

MoJo JoJoe wrote: ... otherwise I'd still have been quite happy with the Super Champ XD.

And I am still delighted with that same Super Champ XD amp ... ?

The Super Champ sparkles and could not be turned down enough at last weeks gig (!)... I kid you not, it was on 2.5 and more than kept up with drums etc.

And people complimented me on the tone of your amp too ?

Jack Flash Jr wrote: The Super Champ sparkles and could not be turned down enough at last weeks gig (!)... I kid you not, it was on 2.5 and more than kept up with drums etc.

I have wondered why the volume control goes to 10.
Never taken mine above 3.

msch997 wrote: I have a PRRI I am in Sandton, you are welcome to come try it out, its a fantastic sounding device.

Brilliant! You have been thanked sir.

wow i leave my pc for one day and get a string of replies thanks guys..all the input is appreciated.......

i done some reading of your posts and here are some replies to some of them ...

MikeM wrote: I'd A/B them. They're VERY similar amps. I personally think the princeton with a alnico gold in (sounds like you can get your tech to stick a 12" speaker in) will be great. Single channel, smaller footprint, lighter and if you do eventually go to something like the gold, it'll probably a touch louder than the deluxe, but fatter and more mids.

I know nothing about the Jnr though so can't offer advice there.

ok so if i change out the speaker of the princeton would the volume increase to similar to a deluxe??? cos in reality the princeton i see is often rated at 12W not 15W as is in many specs and the deluxe reverb is 22W so will a replacement speaker thats sufficiently efficient really add 10W to the volume ?

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
What it all boils down to with the BF amps is they are all tonally very much in the same ballpark, but you use what's best suited volume-wise for the application. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the impression that even when you play with a drummer and vocalist, it's on the quieter side. So I think for your application and what you want to achieve, the Princeton makes the most sense. Perfect volume for small solo gigs to quieter blues jazz ensembles and once again, as the venues get larger, you just put more and more through the PA.

yes alan i do tend to do many quiet gigs. but i must admit that like most gigging muso's who move gear daily ... i have adopted a philosophy of taking as little as possible to gigs.... so yes maybe the princeton will be sufficient but i would hate to have to lug a whole PA just cos it's not loud enough ...cos many gigs.even in bigger rooms will just require me amping up my guitar for the solo guitar jazz gigs..... so i am worried the princeton will not be loud enough at the clean enough tone i want.......( i can have an edge to my sound as slight breakup but not distortion )

MoJo JoJoe wrote: If budget and size is a concern, I would urge you to go try a Super Champ XD. It has a solid-state (modelling) pre-amp and a valve power amp. Don't let that put you off ... go take a listen ... it's a great little amp. I bought one because I thought it was a great substitute for a Deluxe Reverb, but shortly afterwards I was offered a great deal on the Deluxe Reverb new and snapped it up ... otherwise I'd still have been quite happy with the Super Champ XD.

thankfully budget is not a concern for once in my life ? and i can afford to buy either amp brand new (after a nice discount of course) the deluxe reverb RI or the princeton RI it's a matter of what works best for me ...... and thats scary cos i'll only know 3 months into owning it where it falls short or excells FOR MY SPECIFIC NEEDS AS MY GIGS VARY GREATLY FROM SHOW TO SHOW.........

bottledtone wrote: Hi Keira,
You said in previous conversations that you also wanted to have a "CD in", and on the deluxe you might be able to do that through the normal channel.
Then again, there is a weight issue for you, and the princeton has less and lighter metal in it(transformers are small and no choke). The princeton also has an issue of farting out at heavy overdrive, but that might not be a problem for you.
That fartiness is due the cathodyne phase inverter but one simple resister modded into circuit fixes that problem. The princeton also doesn't have a dry/wet mixing valve and instead goes straight to the phase inverter. The deluxe has and therefore has a stronger "gain" in the preamp.
Interesting that it is similar price to deluxe but has less valves, less metal and smaller speaker?
I hope that you find what you are looking for.

yes bottledtone ,1. having a cd/aux input would be nice but i have decided to move away from that if it's not possiblle like in these cases
and yes 2. the weight is important (as in as light as possible) but i have lifted a deluxe reverb and it's not too bad (remember i lug powered speakers around that weigh almost 20kg) but the idea is to use just the amp and not the PA so i guess if the princeton the way lighter can hold it's own volume wise then weight wil be a deciding factor BUT if it means i need the princeton plus carry powered speakers to mic it up to get the volume then i'd rather just carry one bigger amp .....
3. i have no idea what you said re the "farting" but if you know the cure be sure if i buy this i will bring it to you to have it biased hotter and then that mod..... cos i have read the reports online of "farting" issues at higher volumes...... so fab you know the fix .....
4 and yes re pricing ..... at moment i can after generous discounts get a princeton for 13K(retails about 20K) and a deluxe for 15K(retails about 25K ) thats brand new amps ......... so the 2k difference at the moment is not a factor (thankfully i'm working lots of gigs) the cost is not the issue it's about the needs ..... basically which will suit me better (cos i like the tone of both as they to my ears very similar )but the power rating and weight is where the "games begin" cos i'd love smaller and lighter if it's loud enough

makepeace wrote: Or you could get one built for you..

i started down that route...only to discover the cost is very similar BUT i do know that it's easier to resell a fender re issue than a boutique made amp....... and i think if i'm spending over 10K i want to get my money back if i decide in 6 months this does not work for me...... and as we all know albeit he custom made amp might be better in many if not every way ..most buyers want the fender logo and will pay for it ..... but yes i did initially approach a few amp makers but when i found exactly the tone i sought in the BF fender range it was futile to say to someone build me exactly a princeton when they there to be had ...........

singemonkey wrote:

Jack Flash Jr wrote:

Wizard wrote:

MoJo JoJoe wrote: ... otherwise I'd still have been quite happy with the Super Champ XD.

And I am still delighted with that same Super Champ XD amp ... ?

The Super Champ sparkles and could not be turned down enough at last weeks gig (!)... I kid you not, it was on 2.5 and more than kept up with drums etc.

And people complimented me on the tone of your amp too ?

i must say thanks for pointing out the super champ xd but this amp is actually a "gift" to myself for working my butt off in last 6 months ( i done an incredible 240 gigs in 6 months a the palace hotel and got another 80 gigs booked for the coming 3 months also at sun city but at the main hotel casino from may so i need some sort of reward for that work load) and believe it or not it's what i want for me NOT for the gigs.....of course i'll use it at gigs but what i mean to say in a clumsy way is i been getting the gigs i do at highest levels in top hotels using the gear i have and get complimented on my tone/sound so this amp is for me...... and i really want a BF fender amp RI ........ and tho a super champ would do the job more than admirably it's not what intruiges me.... then i may as well keep the same setup i have at the moment ....... this is about buying a piece of the fender heritage albeit a RI

msch997 wrote: Hi Keira


I have a PRRI I am in Sandton, you are welcome to come try it out, its a fantastic sounding device. If you have a little patience I will have a Deluxe Reverb Reissue as well as I have swapped a JCM800 and 4X12 cab for one of those and should have it within a week. you can compare to your hearts content.
Regards
Mike

thanks for the generous offer mike pm from you has been received and answered........ very kind of you


shooooo so there you have it ........ well as i guess you know i just bought a fender usa strat and now in a week or two will buy the amp ..... and then i will have that fender/fender hookup and then any excuses for not getting the tones i love will lie in my hands ..literally

thanks agian for the input .....this forum is soooooooooo useful for folks like me purchasing a product rthat i'm not an expert on....... and all the help in previous posts and this one has led me to narrowing it down to the princeton RI or the deluxe reverb RI wish i could afford them both ?

heres a video of what is called the fender /fender hookup .and the sound i want to acheve in my music....... and yes it's a princeton but as we discussed above i think the deluxe reverb(which i have played a lot recently) sounds quite close and basically gives that BF fender tone........ but the tones that jim gets in this video are what i like.warm /fat and beautiful sounding ...... and if i can get the clean sound he uses to be at a loud enough volume then i want one of these ........ so the deluxe reverb is actually 2nd choice if this is not loud enough ..........

Keira WitherKay wrote: ok so if i change out the speaker of the princeton would the volume increase to similar to a deluxe??? cos in reality the princeton i see is often rated at 12W not 15W as is in many specs and the deluxe reverb is 22W so will a replacement speaker thats sufficiently efficient really add 10W to the volume ?

Some versions of the Deluxe were 12W. The BF and BF Reissue are 15W. The Jenson C10R isn't a particularly efficient speaker (94.7dB), so by putting in a more efficient speaker you can make a big difference - e.g. many of the Eminence patriot series 10" are around 100dB, and the extra 5dBs will almost double your volume.

so i am worried the princeton will not be loud enough at the clean enough tone i want.......( i can have an edge to my sound as slight breakup but not distortion )

I think you'll find it is, until you're playing in ensembles with drums, bass and vocals - by which point there is usually a PA involved anyway.

Keira re Jim Campilongo

I have an article somewhere where Jim explains how he sets up his BF Princeton's for the tone he gets. If you PM me your email address I will try find it and send it to you.

But from memory he has it biased very very hot something like 28 ma and uses only NOS valves, he also dimes the volume to 10 most of the time and plays the guitar volume and picks near the bridge to control the base better. He says there is no free lunch where tone is concerned and because of the hot bias on his amplifiers he goes through NOS valves at a rate.

Me I just wish whenever you buy a Princeton Reverb amp you get a clone of Jim's hands with it!


Mike

msch997 wrote: Keira re Jim Campilongo

I have an article somewhere where Jim explains how he sets up his BF Princeton's for the tone he gets. If you PM me your email address I will try find it and send it to you.

But from memory he has it biased very very hot something like 28 ma and uses only NOS valves, he also dimes the volume to 10 most of the time and plays the guitar volume and picks near the bridge to control the base better. He says there is no free lunch where tone is concerned and because of the hot bias on his amplifiers he goes through NOS valves at a rate.

Me I just wish whenever you buy a Princeton Reverb amp you get a clone of Jim's hands with it!


Mike

yes i have read it too it' actually on his website ...and he gives the specs too..... and yes i think Jim is sheer genius with what he can achieve with just a single coil and an amp.....and those string bends/ behind the nut bends /neck bends.... before i knew his style as well as i do now i thought by just hearing him he had a wammy on his tele but it's all in the technique ...... i must say he's the sole inspiration for me getting the strat and the amp..... even if i can just get a small percentage of the tone he gets i'll be a very happy camper ( pun intended) anyway i'm not trying to clone him or his style but it has in the last months been a major influence and i just love that warm fat clean tone...........

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:

Keira WitherKay wrote: ok so if i change out the speaker of the princeton would the volume increase to similar to a deluxe??? cos in reality the princeton i see is often rated at 12W not 15W as is in many specs and the deluxe reverb is 22W so will a replacement speaker thats sufficiently efficient really add 10W to the volume ?

Some versions of the Deluxe were 12W. The BF and BF Reissue are 15W. The Jenson C10R isn't a particularly efficient speaker (94.7dB), so by putting in a more efficient speaker you can make a big difference - e.g. many of the Eminence patriot series 10" are around 100dB, and the extra 5dBs will almost double your volume.

so i am worried the princeton will not be loud enough at the clean enough tone i want.......( i can have an edge to my sound as slight breakup but not distortion )

I think you'll find it is, until you're playing in ensembles with drums, bass and vocals - by which point there is usually a PA involved anyway.

thanks alan .. cos it would be very comforting to know that if i decide to go the princeton route that a speaker upgrade can add as much as double the volume. then i think it's not a prob anymore to worry about volume cos i played the blues junior ..also 15W and that was loud and clean at quite high levels........... i have unfortunately read some not so great things re the blues junior .......that the reverb isNOT up to par and that it hiss's too much so pity cos i can get one at about 6.5K so half the price of the princeton but by what the online forums say the quality is bad....in comparison to a princeton .... and great as a 1st tube amp .but i don't want to just have a gap filler but something i can cherish and use for a while to come.........also financially i'm doing well so i can afford it now (the princeton or the deluxe reverb) so may as well buy correctly 1st time..........

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Some versions of the Deluxe were 12W. The BF and BF Reissue are 15W. The Jenson C10R isn't a particularly efficient speaker (94.7dB), so by putting in a more efficient speaker you can make a big difference - e.g. many of the Eminence patriot series 10" are around 100dB, and the extra 5dBs will almost double your volume.

Is 1100 a reasonable price for a Ragin Cajun?

Keira...get a Vox AC15 or -30...problem solved . ?