joel
Help on Modes please ☹
I've found this explanation on another forum .
I've skimmed over it briefly and its actually helped me understand Modes a lot more than any other way I've seen / read about thus far ,...............
but Is this explanation factually correct though ? ?.............now all i need is a cheap- ass kiddie keyboard to try this. :-\
Here goes :
Best ("easiest") way to learn them: On the keyboards, starting with Ionian in the key of C. Trust me.
This is way easier in real life than it looks like, and I'm not a keyboard player.
Only the white keys in all examples:
Ionian mode - This is the simplest of the modes in many respects as it relates to the white notes of a keyboard from C to C. So really it is just a major scale.
Dorian mode - This mode has a minor feel to it. It corresponds to the white notes between D and D on a keyboard. Much like a standard minor scale but with a raised 6th.
Phrygian mode - This is another 'minor' mode. It corresponds to the white notes between E and E on a keyboard. This is very much like an E minor scale but the 2nd (normally an F#) is flatted (to F natural).
Lydian mode - This mode is the white notes from F to F on a keyboard. It has a major like feel to it due to the major triad it forms on the tonic, but has a sharpened 4th (the B flat of a standard F major scale becomes a B natural).
Mixolydian mode - Of all the modes this one is probably the most common. it exists as the white notes from G to G, and is basically a major scale with a flattened 7th, giving it the feel of a dominant seventh.
Aeolian mode - This scale is the white notes from A to A. It is sometimes referred to as the natural minor scale as it is the key signature of any given minor scale.
Locrian mode - This last mode is strange, but then again expected if you have spotted the pattern. This mode is the white notes from B to B and begins with a diminished triad on the octave.
P.S. This is easier on a keyboard because you can play and sustain the root note on a lower key, then play the notes of the mode over it, in order to hear how each mode sounds in relation to its root. For example, in D Dorian, play and hold a low D note, then play a higher DEFGABCD (all white keys) over it. Just try it, it really will make sense
Warren
I think it only tells a tiny part of the story. For one thing, it doesn't really mention how you would go about using these modes etc. And it also only addresses the modal system of the major scale, whereas other scales also have their own modal systems (based on the same principles though).
I'll leave it to the guitar tutors to elaborate better than I can, though.
Dirk
Hey there,
Just quickly looked through the modes. I like the way they're trying to make it easy. Although it's not a 100% accurate. The Dorian mode does not have a raised 6th (per se) the 6th must still be played, but the 7th is flattened.
guitarboy2828
Personally I find that explanation pretty useless.. It doesn't really explain anything except what notes are going to be in the modes in the key of C.
It says it sounds major or minor, but on it's own, the mode will sound exactly the same as the previous one. modes on have a distinct sound when played in the context of a certain chord.
If you have some free internet, youtube modes, there are some great lessons on there, it helps becuase they play them for you and you can then hear what they should sound like over certain chords.
MikeM
I'm starting to get a firm grasp of mode, although I am starting ti think they are useless to me. My recommendation is to first learn the makeup of each of the modes, I.e flat seven etc, then from there read all you can about em, repetition will help it make sense
Keira-WitherKay
if you want to apply modes to your playing style............ practise practise practise....and above all learn to understand them , NOT superficially but fully.......the use of modes is mostly for very advanced players and mostly jazz players....... there's a whole genre called 'modal jazz" however i have found that just a little knowledge of modes is more destructive to your playing than constructive..as it requires the full theoritical understanding of the song you are playing...so the player needs to be able to analyse the song .decide which chords are which chords in the appropriate scale (as in is it the I chord or the V chord ect ect ) then the step 2 is to know the modes perfectly (as in their shapes/note patterns) and then step 3 to know which mode will fit over each chord....... sometimes one can use a mode over a few chords because they are harmonically similar and share many of the same notes....... then step 4 ( as warren mentioned) there are modes for each scale...... to use modes successfully one needs to use the modes NOT only of the major scale but also of at least the the minor scales ( melodic minor/harmonic minor ) the natural minor modes will be the same as the major modes (but i'm sure you know that )
below is the modes of Melodic minor
1) A Melodic Minor
Aka: Jazz Minor Scale
Use: on min/maj chords
Notes A B C D E F# G#
Scale Formula 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
2) A Dorian b2
Use: on b9sus4 chords
Notes A Bb C D E F# G
Scale Formula 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7
3) A Lydian #5
Aka: Lydian augmented scale
Use: on maj7#5 chords
Notes A B C# D# E# F# G#
Scale Formula 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7
4) A Lydian Dominant
Aka: Lydian b7, Overtone scale
Use: on 7(#11) chords, also see Tritone Chord Substitution
Notes A B C# D# E F# G
Scale Formula 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
5) A Mixolydian b6
Aka: Mixolydian b13 scale, Hindu scale
Use: on dom7b13 chords
Notes A B C# D E F G
Scale Formula 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7
6) A Aeolian b5
Aka: Locrian #2 scale
Use: on m7b5 chords. Also see Half Diminished Chords
Notes A B C D Eb F G
Scale Formula 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
7) A Altered Scale
Aka: Super Locrian scale, Locrian b4 scale, Diminished Wholetone
Use: on dominant chords with altered tensions, also see The Altered Scale
Notes A Bb C Db Eb F G
Scale Formula 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7
so don't be scared of learning modes . BUT realise it is a serious amount of "work" that you are taking on ...... so many hear of the major modes learn them and find they don't understand enough theory to apply it well, and this is a tricky application that required many months even years of study to implement correctly ...... but it is VERY REWARDING if one pursues this... but just realise theres more to it than just learning a few shapes...... it's more important to have a solid grasp on theory and scales and chords that build up on scales . modes is something one would tie in with a full degreed course in music .......
and yes modes are used by all the virtuosa muso'a like vai / guthrie govan/all jazz greats and many others however they all theory boffs too ?
if you want to really learn modes i would suggest one 1st gets a solid grasp on theory then progress to modes after a comrehensive theory study.
please don't hate me for this responce ..........but as a tutor i seen too many people literally waste time trying to understand modal playing without a theoretical background or understanding and this classic saying applies to modal playing .."a little knowledge is very dangerous" so as i mentioned a few times..... if you pursue this find a tutor and do it properly ......
also if you like modal playing check out local music tutor(Jhb) at Wits music dept i think and performing musician Jonathan Crosley he is a fabulus modal player
FruitarGeek
Ahhh Keira thank you. That was my next step in the journey of jazz, was learning the melodic scale, and now you have it all beautifully layed out here.
I have a question. Now I know my major/minor scale modes pretty darn well, and I think I know all the relevant theory for such modes. So for example a common ii-V-I jazz progression. Id play Dorian, Mixo and Ionion (obviously this is hypotheical, I'd spice it up a little more) now my problem is when I play those 3 scales, they sound far too similar. I know in theory they will, But I guess I was always expecting the emphasis on the different notes going to give some type of flare. I mean I'm playing in a modal context, but it just sounds like one giant scale with no uniqueness
joel
Thnx to all for your input......
Malkav
Modes = Dark Magic
No one ever truly understands them, we just all build up our catalogue of spells to use on each other and our unsuspecting audience. Sometimes an elder warlock shows up with a greater repertoire of spells than us, we watch his movements and listen to his notes trying to follow the process of his magic so we may strengthen ours...
Sadly this process never ends...
Some tell stories of the one who has mastered all, the legends continue and every decade or so they get a new flagship...
But there will never be an ultimate master, as the powers of the dark magics will consume your soul and you will die an untimely death...
MikeM
Agreed with Chad.. I've seen insane players that have no knowledge of modes.. My current learning process is transcribing music I like. I'm over trying to learn all this theory that gives me minimal real gains, I've learnt more about making music in the past month of transcribing than in the last year of trying to suss out modes.
LouisNeilson
With modes, and all scales, you reall wanna learn it in 3 ways.
1 - The general shape (not just in position, but moving across the fretboard, and extending it past an octave)
2 - The "intervallic structure" there of, ranging from the "Tone Tone Semi-tone Tone Tone Tone Semi-tone" structure (Major scale, Ionian, used as an example here) to what the diatonic 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7ths are. For modes, it's also useful to classify them as Major (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian) and minor (see - all the rest ?) and what makes them different from the basic Major or minor shape (i.e. Mixolydian has a flat/minor 7 compared to the Ionian)
It is also useful to sing the next note before you play it (helps with both fingerboard knowledge, and aural skills)
3 - The general sound/tone of it. This will help you to recognise the the scale or mode when in use, and will help you improve your aural skills as well.
Modes as a concept are really simple, and I think you've grasped them, but basically it's just when a scale starts from a different position inside of it (instead of going root to root, it goes 3rd to 10th for instance)
Keira-WitherKay
FruitarGeek wrote:
Ahhh Keira thank you. That was my next step in the journey of jazz, was learning the melodic scale, and now you have it all beautifully layed out here.
I have a question. Now I know my major/minor scale modes pretty darn well, and I think I know all the relevant theory for such modes. So for example a common ii-V-I jazz progression. Id play Dorian, Mixo and Ionion (obviously this is hypotheical, I'd spice it up a little more) now my problem is when I play those 3 scales, they sound far too similar. I know in theory they will, But I guess I was always expecting the emphasis on the different notes going to give some type of flare. I mean I'm playing in a modal context, but it just sounds like one giant scale with no uniqueness
yeah i get what you saying. but as i said above just knowing the modes is not enough ...... it may sound that way but it's not just plug and play.. thats where that wonderful expression "NOT CHOICE" comes from meaning each guitarist may know the appropriate mode over a specific chord but which notes they select and how they phrase it is what makes the difference ......
and believe it or not we all use the modal theory in some degree in our playing ..... even if we don't realise it .........
personally since i play multipart solo guitar ...... when i do an improv piece i look to play notes that are around the chord so i think in chords . NOT scales.... but even tho my approach is thinking of chord tones/appegio's and harmony notes to those chord tones....... the notes i use will overlap with modes quite easily cos for instance if i play over a II chord which is a minor i use the root of the chord for the starting note.( like the dorian would start on 2nd note of the sclae) and because the II chord is a minor i would end up playing very close to a dorian scale.........BUT in my way of looking at improv i include not only the scale tones BUT the "outside" notes as well..... and notes which work in harmony to the scale notes...... this is what makes it more disctinctive......
i would suggest you learn to play notes that are "outside" the scale as well...and yes it takes a while to use them successfully but if you think of the jazz "bebop" scale it uses a bVII and a VII in the same scale.... but that discord and chromatic flavour if you run VI bVII VII VIII is whar gives it the jazz sound..... but again it can't be used over the I chord and yes again one needs to understand the theory behind it to make it work within the music .....
so practise practise practise ?
LouisNeilson
Basically you want chord tones on strong beats and scale tones on weak beats, save the off beat for experimentation?
That's just an easy way, not advising sticking to that - but if you're nervous, running out of ideas it's the quick solve formula
BMU
Keira WitherKay wrote:...II chord which is a minor i use the root of the chord for the starting note.( like the dorian would start on 2nd note of the sclae) and because the II chord is a minor i would end up playing very close to a dorian scale
Keira - help me understand something if you don't mind.
If you play Dorian in the 2nd position you're still playing the major scale, not so? Or in other words, F# Dorian has the identical notes to E major.
In order to actually play in the Dorian mode, you need to play Dorian in the first position, at the root note. (?)
Keira-WitherKay
BMU wrote:
Keira WitherKay wrote:...II chord which is a minor i use the root of the chord for the starting note.( like the dorian would start on 2nd note of the sclae) and because the II chord is a minor i would end up playing very close to a dorian scale
Keira - help me understand something if you don't mind.
If you play Dorian in the 2nd position you're still playing the major scale, not so? Or in other words, F# Dorian has the identical notes to E major.
In order to actually play in the Dorian mode, you need to play Dorian in the first position, at the root note. (?)
well in the key of E the root note of the dorian mode is the F# . what makes the modes sound different is that dispite them being the same note the intervals between the notes changed so a Dorian mode has a minor feel cos the III note is 3 semitones away from the root of the dorian so it' I II bIII ( and we all know a minor tone is indicated bythe flat III) so the dorian mode has hence a minor feel......but note wise if related to the original key of E the notes will relate that the dorian I(root note the dorian is II note of major scale) II bIII ( F#/G#/A ) will be the same as the II III IV ( F# / G#/ A ) of the major scale in E
but if i understood your question NO i would not play in the key of E and play a dorian by starting on E ( cos then you playing dorian in key of D NOT E ) ( unless i misunderstood you ) dorian in key of E will start on F# but if you confused find a tutor and get it sorted cos modes as i posted earlier are not easy to understand....... and even more difficult to use correctly but understanding it is critical too many people learn he shapes but don't know how to apply them.....
BMU
Ok. So let's say you strum an E maj chord and I'm playing the E maj scale - I'm playing in E major. Fine so far.
Now you strum an F# min chord, I carry on playing the E major scale. But now I'm playing in F# Dorian. 'Cos the underlying chord makes the ear resolve the root back to F# not E, changing the relative positions of the notes w.r.t. the root.. even though I'm playing the exact same notes. Something like that?
Keira-WitherKay
BMU wrote:
Ok. So let's say you strum an E maj chord and I'm playing the E maj scale - I'm playing in E major. Fine so far.
Now you strum an F# min chord, I carry on playing the E major scale. But now I'm playing in F# Dorian. 'Cos the underlying chord makes the ear resolve the root back to F# not E, changing the relative positions of the notes w.r.t. the root.. even though I'm playing the exact same notes. Something like that?
yes something like that ... BUT if you change your chord to F#m is you using modes you change to the dorian mode ....... and tho yes the notes are the same the change in position on the fretboard gives a different flavour to the scale...... but like i said too complicated to write out but find a tutor in CT even if it's not for regular lessons but just to explain modes, once you understand the theory of it the rest like most things in guitar playing is just muscle memory so focus on understanding how to use modes..
good luck let us know how it progress's
BMU
Thanks again. I had some of that but you cleared something up for me.
I have it that minor key modes go minor-locrian-major-dor-phryg-lyd-mix etc. (I learn them relative to minor cos the major is useless to me.) I know all that and their shapes, but it's not something I think about a lot except when I'm running scale practices.
When I'm really making music, things quickly get too complicated for me to track theoretically (modulate out of the original diatonic pattern etc), I'm not sure what benefit there would spending hours developing that working knowledge. Hours that could be spent making new music or learning to play better. Maybe later, heh.
Kind of what others have said too earlier in the thread I guess.
FruitarGeek
I'm in a similar boat with you BMU. The more often we practice in a modal context, the better we get at it.
I read the article posted by 21Fretter, and although I don't agree 100% with what the guy was saying (although he was just saying it for demonstration purposes) one thing that did stick with me was, when thinking in modal context, play modal. i.e. dont think of the major scale when you play Ionian, don't think of minor scale when you play Aeolian. Ionian, although it is technically the major scale, must be thought of as being a mode. Same for Aeolian.
Keep the modes strictly modes. And for every chord change, change the corresponding mode. One other cool thing I discovered like 2 weeks ago, is that just because you play on the II chord of lets say the C major (diatonic) scale. Doesn't mean you limited to playing either a) The parent scale, (C major) or b) D Dorian. I learnt that you can play the D Aeolian, and maybe even D Phrigian as long as it stays ONLY in that chord, or else it will just end up sounding bad when the next chord comes. Pretty trippy if you ask me.
But I have it summarised as thus
Major chords use: Ionian, Lydian
Minor chords use: Dorian, Phrigian, Aeolian
Dominant: Mixolidian (I really like this scale)
Dimished: Locrean
I'm now off to learn my Melodic Minor scale, courtesy of Keira ? Btw Keira upon observation of which chord you recommend the scale be played over. There were some hardcore chords there like b9sus4 that I have never seen in my journey of jazz. This makes me sad, cause it means very seldom I will get the opportunity to effectivly use that Dorian b2 scale.
