Gibson Official Distributor in SA

msch997 · 2010-12-22T19:57:18+00:00

I received an email yesterday from Marshall Music (I am on their mailing list), the email states that they are now the official importers and dealers in Gibson guitars for South Africa. They say that stock arrives early January and they are launching at Tanz cafe also in January. For more information please contact them and not me, I am just passing on what I think may be of interest to the forum members ?. I am in no way employed by or affiliated to them . Regards Mike

MikeM

IceCreamMan wrote I was not disputing the requirement for the apology nor the fairness (which was fair) merely an attempt at humour, albeit weak it appears.

Heheh my bad, I'm sick which typically helps me be a bit slower than usual!

singemonkey

I'd be surprised if Marshall offers reasonable prices on Gibsons. Just looking at the cost of that LP Trad that sold in Durbs this year, I'd still think that anyone who wants a Gibson who has to think seriously about the cost will be better off importing.

When a 1958 Custom Shop reissue can be bought for under R20K and shipped for under R1,000, I think it's mad to spend R23,000 on a Les Paul Traditional or Standard.

Marco and his dad might now be shunted out of importing, but I still think their prices were pretty fair. I wouldn't be surprised if the official distributors can't do the same kinds of prices.

vic

singemonkey wrote I'd be surprised if Marshall offers reasonable prices on Gibsons. Just looking at the cost of that LP Trad that sold in Durbs this year, I'd still think that anyone who wants a Gibson who has to think seriously about the cost will be better off importing.

When a 1958 Custom Shop reissue can be bought for under R20K and shipped for under R1,000, I think it's mad to spend R23,000 on a Les Paul Traditional or Standard.

Marco and his dad might now be shunted out of importing, but I still think their prices were pretty fair. I wouldn't be surprised if the official distributors can't do the same kinds of prices.

There are many ways to skin a cat. Nothing stops a collector from importing a guitar/s and selling it off again.

PeteM

vic wrote
singemonkey wrote I'd be surprised if Marshall offers reasonable prices on Gibsons. Just looking at the cost of that LP Trad that sold in Durbs this year, I'd still think that anyone who wants a Gibson who has to think seriously about the cost will be better off importing.

When a 1958 Custom Shop reissue can be bought for under R20K and shipped for under R1,000, I think it's mad to spend R23,000 on a Les Paul Traditional or Standard.

Marco and his dad might now be shunted out of importing, but I still think their prices were pretty fair. I wouldn't be surprised if the official distributors can't do the same kinds of prices.
There are many ways to skin a cat. Nothing stops a collector from importing a guitar/s and selling it off again.

True. But will the manufacturer's guarantees/warrantees be in place?

vic

PeteM wrote
vic wrote
singemonkey wrote I'd be surprised if Marshall offers reasonable prices on Gibsons. Just looking at the cost of that LP Trad that sold in Durbs this year, I'd still think that anyone who wants a Gibson who has to think seriously about the cost will be better off importing.

When a 1958 Custom Shop reissue can be bought for under R20K and shipped for under R1,000, I think it's mad to spend R23,000 on a Les Paul Traditional or Standard.

Marco and his dad might now be shunted out of importing, but I still think their prices were pretty fair. I wouldn't be surprised if the official distributors can't do the same kinds of prices.
There are many ways to skin a cat. Nothing stops a collector from importing a guitar/s and selling it off again.
True. But will the manufacturer's guarantees/warrantees be in place?

Yes, again just a technicality.

PeteM

vic wrote
PeteM wrote
vic wrote
singemonkey wrote I'd be surprised if Marshall offers reasonable prices on Gibsons. Just looking at the cost of that LP Trad that sold in Durbs this year, I'd still think that anyone who wants a Gibson who has to think seriously about the cost will be better off importing.

When a 1958 Custom Shop reissue can be bought for under R20K and shipped for under R1,000, I think it's mad to spend R23,000 on a Les Paul Traditional or Standard.

Marco and his dad might now be shunted out of importing, but I still think their prices were pretty fair. I wouldn't be surprised if the official distributors can't do the same kinds of prices.
There are many ways to skin a cat. Nothing stops a collector from importing a guitar/s and selling it off again.
True. But will the manufacturer's guarantees/warrantees be in place?
Yes, again just a technicality.

Quite a big technicality considering that Gibsons are high ticket items in the guitar realm.

vic

PeteM wrote
vic wrote
PeteM wrote
vic wrote
singemonkey wrote I'd be surprised if Marshall offers reasonable prices on Gibsons. Just looking at the cost of that LP Trad that sold in Durbs this year, I'd still think that anyone who wants a Gibson who has to think seriously about the cost will be better off importing.
Quite a big technicality considering that Gibsons are high ticket items in the guitar realm.
Pete, if you buy a Gibson from say John Smith's Gibson guitars in the USA and you find it to be faulty, what happens ? You send it back and they correct the problem albeit via the Gibson factory. Any official agent here will do the same.

singemonkey

I think that's what Pete's saying. Going through alternative channels you don't get to do that.

But I say, if the savings are significant enough, you can pay for your own repairs as long as you're careful with your buying.

vic

Pete, if you (as the collector I was referring to) buy a Gibson from say John Smith's Gibson guitars in the USA and you find it to be faulty, what happens ? You send it back and they correct the problem albeit via the Gibson factory. Any official agent here will do the same.
But store warrantees aside, the National Consumer Act in most countries protects consumers a lot more (extensively) than a store warrantee and all stores must conform to the Act... This Act boils down to the fact that any seller of new product/s MUST replace/fix a faulty item, warrantee or not.

Bob-Dubery

singemonkey wrote Marco and his dad might now be shunted out of importing,

They might be, they might not be. There's at least one "parallel" importer of Martin guitars in this country, and the official franchise holders have not shut that other importer down.

I'm not sure how to feel about parallel imports. I've worked for an official distributor who had to fight against parallel importers. It wasn't a fair fight either. The official guys had to maintain workshops to an agreed standard and with an agreed staffing. They had to maintain an inventory of spares - even for discontinued models. They even had a specification for the solder they had to use in the workshop. The opposition could just buy crates of stuff in Hong Kong and fly them in and not give a damn about servicing or keeping spare parts.

OK... guitars are not exactly similar to electronic commodities, and I'm certainly not accusing Guitartone of being unethical, but there may be costs and responsibilities that the official agent has to bear that a parallel importer may not have to. You might say "so what?" Well... if you need spares or information or have a query about something that looks like a manufacturing issue will the parallel importer be able to help? There are, as with so many things, swings and roundabouts, pros and cons with official versus unofficial importers.

deefstes

X-rated Bob wrote
singemonkey wrote Marco and his dad might now be shunted out of importing,
They might be, they might not be. There's at least one "parallel" importer of Martin guitars in this country, and the official franchise holders have not shut that other importer down.

I'm not sure how to feel about parallel imports. I've worked for an official distributor who had to fight against parallel importers. It wasn't a fair fight either. The official guys had to maintain workshops to an agreed standard and with an agreed staffing. They had to maintain an inventory of spares - even for discontinued models. They even had a specification for the solder they had to use in the workshop. The opposition could just buy crates of stuff in Hong Kong and fly them in and not give a damn about servicing or keeping spare parts.

OK... guitars are not exactly similar to electronic commodities, and I'm certainly not accusing Guitartone of being unethical, but there may be costs and responsibilities that the official agent has to bear that a parallel importer may not have to. You might say "so what?" Well... if you need spares or information or have a query about something that looks like a manufacturing issue will the parallel importer be able to help? There are, as with so many things, swings and roundabouts, pros and cons with official versus unofficial importers.

In a case like this my sympathy would be with the parallel importer (Guitartone in this case). When Gibson upped and left they basically hung the South African aficionados of Gibson out to dry. No more support, no more parts, no more guitars. Guitartone filled the niche and, for all intents and purposes, was the sole importer. Now, when Gibson decides to grace us with their presence again and arrives like the Queen of Sheba, the sole importer becomes the parallel importer and is supposed to close down?

kp247

I haven't felt the need to post for a while but when Gibson is mentioned I always read everything twice.

If an official store in SA is going to bring in Gibsons at a competitive price that's just great! Just do yourself a favor and check eBay first before you buy, even if it's just to compare prices. I imported a mint condition 2008 Black LP Custom for under 20K from a reputable US supplier and I've never been happier. Fantastic guitar, mint condition, great price!

Bob-Dubery

deefstes wrote In a case like this my sympathy would be with the parallel importer (Guitartone in this case). When Gibson upped and left they basically hung the South African aficionados of Gibson out to dry. No more support, no more parts, no more guitars. Guitartone filled the niche and, for all intents and purposes, was the sole importer. Now, when Gibson decides to grace us with their presence again and arrives like the Queen of Sheba, the sole importer becomes the parallel importer and is supposed to close down?

That presupposes that it was Gibson who have decided to come and go like royalty. It may be that whoever held the franchise previously screwed up. It's also none of Gibson's beeswax if somebody else, without their sanctioning, decided to bring Gibsons into the country via some indirect route. They have no reason to be loyal to that "somebody else" and, in fact, there was nothing stopping that somebody else seeking to legitimise the relationship.

In general, and for me, it depends on the channel. Some channels give very good support and good pricing, others - official or not - give shoddy service. Vote with your feet.

But see my earlier post - it can get messy. You go to some shop (in the case I describe one of the parallel importers was a major supermarket chain) and you buy the brand name article. You have no way of knowing that the item you bought isn't supported by the manufacturer and there is no or limited backup. This doesn't do the brand much good and the customer can certainly suffer too. In the case of guitars and the kind of businesses we're discussing here it's probably not that bad because the goods they bring in are unlikely to find their way into other showrooms as new guitars, so you'll know that the guitar wasn't bought in via an official supplier.

IceCreamMan

in the motorcycle industry of which i have intimate knowledge there is room for parralel importers even gray importers (there is a difference) and these guys make an honest living undercutting the official distrubutors by enough of a margin to attract customers... warrantees are normally instore and i have not heard to many stories of woe. The resale value is obviously less as well.....

Guitars are simpler than 300 kph + motorbikes so if parrallel importers can offer good prices they can make a space for themselves competing against the offical importers an the internet ....

in gibsons absence ppl been importing their own as gray imports .... again not to many stories of woe... if any.

the market will decide who survives and who does not ... simple

singemonkey

IceCreamMan wrote the market will decide who survives and who does not ... simple

I'm all for this statement - when it's about non-critical stuff like bikes and guitars. This is real capitalism. When different things can be sold in different places and the law restricts what can be sold where? Big corporations love that. But there's an expression for it: "command economy," a la The Soviet Union.

But even with bikes, are not most of the grey imports second hand? A few thousand miles on the clock?

Because it is 100% ok to bring in any guitar in the world second hand and sell it in SA - even if it's one of the ones that are "only for sale in Asia," and whatnot. Even if it's in mint condition.

Norman86

Im going to add something here too, and liken it to the Core group, who do apple and nintendo products...

The official importer does NOT buy at retail value from the manufacturing company!
The official importer also brings in thousands of the product at the same time, thereby actually minimising the cost of shipping!

What am i getting at?
Well, If an ipod nano costs $170 USD RETAIL (Equivalent to around R1100 ) in the states, then why, with the amount of product that gets brought into SA, does the same ipod go for R2000??
Someone is making big profits, and yet, people try to justify it?!
there is no way that core buy the ipods at R1100! there is also absolutely no way that it costs R900 extra per ipod for shipping / taxes / etc.
Yes, there ARE many costs, and i know and agree that there are... but when you ship so many products all the time, there are many trade discounts etc. that go on, again, minimising cost and helping to maximise profit!

To me, the Gibson / Fender / luxury premium guitar importation works the same...
They (The official distributors) beleive they are bringing in premium products and so think they can get away with charging premium prices because the South African consumer doesn't know any better!
Personally, i DO NOT beleive the importers are buying at retail value, so why we need to get raped in SA and actually support the prices we get told to pay it is above me.
Yes, i beleive people should be entitled to a profit, but the way businesses go about it is what gets to me!
UNETHICAL profits are something i do not agree with!
You should make profits ethically, because Karma DOES go around, and in the end, all that profit made from quick bucks by raping the unwitting customer comes back to bite you in the ass!

This is the whole reason people choose to import things! and this is MY personal opinion on it!
you are welcome to disagree, as its a public forum, but i wouldnt mind seeing some hard figures!

/end opinion!

AlanRatcliffe

Sorry, but you obviously don't know how importing works. This topic has been discussed many times before, do a search if you want more info, but in a nutshell:

When an importer is involved, it is an extra middleman (necessary to get the product here, store it and distribute it to retailers). Plus there are many more expenses to running an import business than simply shipping to SA and VAT (import duties, clearance fees, warehousing, staff, electricity, fixed assets, rent, rates, advertising, telephones local shipping to stores, warrantee repairs - i.e. all the usual overheads of any business plus a few more). And if you are going to invest millions of rand in a product line, you do deserve to make some profit yourself, n'est ce pas? Otherwise you might as well stick your money in the bank and retire, living on the interest.

Now you might decide to retail the product yourself and sell it directly to the consumer, which cuts out the usual retail markup and brings the prices much closer into line with their US counterparts. But but to do that, you have to have a direct distribution network of your own (i.e. stores all around the country) and it also means the product will not be available in most of the usual stores. It's also well worth noting that many manufacturers insist that you wholesale and distribute to other stores - you don't do that, you don't keep the agency, simple as that.

Now, the selling direct to consumers scenario is a possibility in the future (it already happens that some brands are treated as "in-house" brands and not wholesaled). But it also means that the products will only be available in the importers own stores, so you will have to go to Marshall for Gibson, Bothner's for Fender. Still sounds cool, right? But that only works where the companies have stores in all the major towns. What happens when you want a Marshall amp or a Yamaha guitar, but you live in Cape Town and the distributor/retailer is in JHB or vice versa? Then you have to buy unheard, unseen and unplayed, plus pay for local shipping. Now what about the poor guy living in Kimberly, Nelspruit or Pofadder - his local store has no access to any of these brands. Not so cool anymore...

BTW - The local importers usually pay more for the products than the big US retailers (who also buy directly from the manufacturer and can move a lot more units). In the case of Fender (and apparently also soon with Gibson), the local distributor can only buy from the European distributor - which adds yet another markup on. This is not the doing of the local guys, but at the dictate of the manufacturer.

[OK - as "nutshells" go, this turned out to be one damn jolly big nut. ? Wholesalers - anything major I forgot to mention?]

Bob-Dubery

Norman86 wrote What am i getting at?
Well, If an ipod nano costs $170 USD RETAIL (Equivalent to around R1100 ) in the states, then why, with the amount of product that gets brought into SA, does the same ipod go for R2000??
Someone is making big profits, and yet, people try to justify it?!
there is no way that core buy the ipods at R1100! there is also absolutely no way that it costs R900 extra per ipod for shipping / taxes / etc.
Yes, there ARE many costs, and i know and agree that there are... but when you ship so many products all the time, there are many trade discounts etc. that go on, again, minimising cost and helping to maximise profit!

Importing from one market to another costs money. Full stop. You buy an I-pod in the USA you buy it in it's "home" market.

He's an example.
RRP of a Lowden 022 guitar in Europe is R21956 after you convert the Euro price to Rands
In the UK RRP works out to R25418 - 14% up already and they only have to go from Ireland to the UK
In the USA the price is R29656 - 35% up on the Euro price. Those poor yanks are getting the shaft hey? But their I-pods are cheap.

That's for Lowden guitars - a low volume product (Lowden only make about 500 guitars a year), no scale of discounts for bulk purchasing.

Just because something costs more away from home doesn't mean that somebody is ripping the consumer off, and I quoted the example that I did just to show that this isn't a South African phenomenon. It's what happens when you import goods into a market.

To me, the Gibson / Fender / luxury premium guitar importation works the same...
They (The official distributors) beleive they are bringing in premium products and so think they can get away with charging premium prices because the South African consumer doesn't know any better!
Personally, i DO NOT beleive the importers are buying at retail value, so why we need to get raped in SA and actually support the prices we get told to pay it is above me.
Yes, i beleive people should be entitled to a profit, but the way businesses go about it is what gets to me!
UNETHICAL profits are something i do not agree with!
You should make profits ethically, because Karma DOES go around, and in the end, all that profit made from quick bucks by raping the unwitting customer comes back to bite you in the ass!

This is the whole reason people choose to import things! and this is MY personal opinion on it!
you are welcome to disagree, as its a public forum, but i wouldnt mind seeing some hard figures!

Neither would I. Drawing a conclusion from figures is one thing, and reasonable men might draw differing conclusions from the same data, but you seem to have drawn a conclusion from no data at all.

BTW Do we know yet what sort of prices MM are going to be selling Gibsons at? And do we have pricelists from the likes of Guitartone? Then we have the start of a comparison, though you still wouldn't be comparing apples with apples.

Sean

Alan Ratcliffe wrote [OK - as "nutshells" go, this turned out to be one damn jolly big nut. ?

Yes, but covered the basics well. Like you said, this has been discussed many times before. If folk want to get their heads around this issue, just imagine starting your own business and go about setting up the business plan and cost structure. Like Alan said, many many costs. With these high ticket items what gets you every time is the number of units that you need to move. In South Africa's market, it's always going to be difficult moving large volumes of these items. You can cut your profit to the bare minimum, but you're not suddenly going to be moving enough units to make up for the profit you've forfeited.

vic

@Bob....The pricelist for Guitar Tone is on their website. I notice their banner is also still on this Forum, so one could check it out.

MM quoted R75000 in 2009 for a Customshop '59 Les Paul (R9) with money upfront. Now I know that this guitar can be landed here today for around R35000 to the consumer.

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