Gibson Official Distributor in SA

msch997 · 2010-12-22T19:57:18+00:00

I received an email yesterday from Marshall Music (I am on their mailing list), the email states that they are now the official importers and dealers in Gibson guitars for South Africa. They say that stock arrives early January and they are launching at Tanz cafe also in January. For more information please contact them and not me, I am just passing on what I think may be of interest to the forum members ?. I am in no way employed by or affiliated to them . Regards Mike

singemonkey

Maybe someone could give an example of a discontinued product line and explain, with numbers, step-by-step, how the stores arrive at the prices they sell at? Cos, staff, and overheads and all that, it still sounds like voodoo when they're buying wholesale but charging double the US retail price - especially given those bulk shipping rates. Wages are even cheaper here than in the states. As are real estate and rents.

vic

singemonkey wrote Maybe someone could give an example of a discontinued product line and explain, with numbers, step-by-step, how the stores arrive at the prices they sell at? Cos, staff, and overheads and all that, it still sounds like voodoo when they're buying wholesale but charging double the US retail price - especially given those bulk shipping rates. Wages are even cheaper here than in the states. As are real estate and rents.

And voodoo it is....but let's wait for the MM pricelist (after discount ! 8)) and then compare (apples with apples) with say Guitar Tone's or importing directly.(granted unseen, unplayed in the latter case).

Bottom line is.... consumers don't care a f#@$ for the "reasons" why any item costs Rx at a Store X while you can buy the same thing for say 50% less at another smaller outlet....all candy included.

MM Cape Town, recently had a Gretsch electromatic series (George Harrison-double cut-type if I remember correctly ?) on their wall for about R16,000. The same guitar retails for 550 GBP (before discount) in London......voodoo I tell you. ?

AlanRatcliffe

As I said - there is an extra middleman, who also needs to see a return on their investment.

Put simply, In the US the supply chain is manufacturer > retailer. Here (or any country who is importing) it is manufacturer > distributor > retailer and in some cases manufacturer > Euro distributor > local distributor > retailer. Price you pay for living at the arse-end of the world.

Apparently (but don't quote me), the new Gibson arrangement will be manufacturer > Euro distributor > local retailer. Industry scuttlebutt also has other restrictions and requirements applied by Gibson beyond the norm (no wholesaling, Gibson dictates which models they carry and other silliness). So IMO, prices are not likely to improve (in fact they will probably get worse), but it's too early to speculate.

So in other words, Gibson may be back officially, but they are still up to all their old crap business practices. I suppose we should be thankful that at least, they didn't give the agency to a furniture store this time.

chris77

I have a soft spot for the small entrepeneur. Unless MM is significantly cheaper, I will rather support Guitartone. Mind you, either way Gibson still makes a sale, so I would still rather buy a pre-loved instrument. Petty, I know, but ja. Thats how I feel about the big G at the moment. Maybe in a few years, when I have enough disposable income to actually buy one, I might feel different about them.

vic

Sean wrote
Alan Ratcliffe wrote [OK - as "nutshells" go, this turned out to be one damn jolly big nut. ?
Yes, but covered the basics well. Like you said, this has been discussed many times before. If folk want to get their heads around this issue, just imagine starting your own business and go about setting up the business plan and cost structure. Like Alan said, many many costs. With these high ticket items what gets you every time is the number of units that you need to move. In South Africa's market, it's always going to be difficult moving large volumes of these items. You can cut your profit to the bare minimum, but you're not suddenly going to be moving enough units to make up for the profit you've forfeited.

Then I say...don't go there. Move the Corts and MIM's and the MIK's, strings, etc. but then allow for the smaller entrepeneur who is willing and able to import the higher ticket guitars and deliver it at a decent price. Don't run crying to Big Daddy Gibson and complain that there's opposition here who is "undermining" your inflated prices. And don't make all sorts of excuses as to WHY your prices are not competitive...we don't want to hear your BS.

joel

? Whispers : First shipment : Traditionals and Standards , at the same price , 20K , all in cherry red sunburst.......apparently........

Norman86

Sean wrote You can cut your profit to the bare minimum, but you're not suddenly going to be moving enough units to make up for the profit you've forfeited.

I beg to differ here as well!
You might not move drastically more units, BUT, you WILL move more! more units sold equals higher profit, as opposed to fewer units sold with double the cost as profit.

There was also the thing of things being more expensive outside its home market...
It is NOT ALWAYS so.
Take Volkswagen polo's that get built here, but are sold at a considerably lower price outside of SA. Thats another reason why i refuse to put money into Volkswagen or its products.

Again, i might be using a different product, but the point stays the same!

Vic, even MIM's are sold for ridiculous prices, ONLY because it says Fender on the headstock!

I am not a Gibson fan, but if i ever were to consider one, Guitartone would get my money!
because surely they too must be making a profit, but at least they are doing it ETHICALLY!
Which was the point of my whole post earlier!

I say again, i have no problem with people making profit, but its the way they go about it...

Norman86

One more thing...
Looking at GuitarTone's prices...
all i can say is that im shocked at how much profit other guitar stores make on the same models they sell at a fraction of the cost!

Well done to GuitarTone for showing the big boys how to play!

Sean

vic wrote Then I say...don't go there. Move the Corts and MIM's and the MIK's, strings, etc. but then allow for the smaller entrepeneur who is willing and able to import the higher ticket guitars and deliver it at a decent price. Don't run crying to Big Daddy Gibson and complain that there's opposition here who is "undermining" your inflated prices. And don't make all sorts of excuses as to WHY your prices are not competitive...we don't want to hear your BS.

Honestly, I would not know if the prices are unreasonably inflated or not. You seem to know that they are as a fact. To have a number of these guitars on a shop floor available to customers to play before buying ties up a chunk of capital I would imagine. There are probably a host of other factors that are more than likely not so obvious. I don't know anyone in that particular industry and I seldom go to these shops but it does seem a bit harsh to me to label these things as excuses and BS. As for the "smaller entrepreneurs", I wonder how many of these are making a living from this exclusively, and how many are doing it on the side. Not that it matters (business is business), but the guy who owns the shop and makes his living from it is offering a service that some find worthwhile, so I think understandably his costs and risks will be higher.

I suppose what it might come down to is those who want to play before buying will have to pay the unreasonably inflated prices, and those who don't mind not seeing the guitar first (unless they happen to live in the same area) get it for less from the smaller entrepreneur.

vic

Sean wrote
vic wrote Then I say...don't go there. Move the Corts and MIM's and the MIK's, strings, etc. but then allow for the smaller entrepeneur who is willing and able to import the higher ticket guitars and deliver it at a decent price. Don't run crying to Big Daddy Gibson and complain that there's opposition here who is "undermining" your inflated prices. And don't make all sorts of excuses as to WHY your prices are not competitive...we don't want to hear your BS.
Honestly, I would not know if the prices are unreasonably inflated or not. You seem to know that they are as a fact. To have a number of these guitars on a shop floor available to customers to play before buying ties up a chunk of capital I would imagine. There are probably a host of other factors that are more than likely not so obvious. I don't know anyone in that particular industry and I seldom go to these shops but it does seem a bit harsh to me to label these things as excuses and BS. As for the "smaller entrepreneurs", I wonder how many of these are making a living from this exclusively, and how many are doing it on the side. Not that it matters (business is business), but the guy who owns the shop and makes his living from it is offering a service that some find worthwhile, so I think understandably his costs and risks will be higher.

I suppose what it might come down to is those who want to play before buying will have to pay the unreasonably inflated prices, and those who don't mind not seeing the guitar first (unless they happen to live in the same area) get it for less from the smaller entrepreneur.

Well we'll have to wait and see what the actual prices for Gibson are once they (MM) are ready to do business. Fact is R75000 vs R35000 for the same model LP. If that is not inflated, I don't know...maybe it's super-inflated ? The days of inefficient businesses (albeit because of a long supply chain and middlemen,staff salaries,theft,risk of investment,etc......those are the excuses usually) are numbered. Also there are not big stores in every town...so what do you do if you wish to try before you buy and you happen to live in one of these ? You travel.
In Stellenbosch some businesses have this "buy local" slogan...but how can you expect the consumer to buy here if he/she can get the same article for > 30% less just 15km away ? eg. R78 vs R56 for a pool chlorine dispenser ?.....same thing.

Sean

Norman86 wrote I beg to differ here as well!
You might not move drastically more units, BUT, you WILL move more! more units sold equals higher profit, as opposed to fewer units sold with double the cost as profit.

Not as simple as that I think. It's an economics issue really (price elasticity) With a luxury item such as this, the market is tiny to begin with, the drop in price will not necessarily drag enough customers from the tier below to make the lower price feasible.

vic

Sorry I forgot to mention...at these smaller entrepeneurs you CAN actually see and play the guitars first before you buy ?. You just need to get there if you're not in the area.

Sean

vic wrote Sorry I forgot to mention...at these smaller entrepeneurs you CAN actually see and play the guitars first before you buy ?. You just need to get there if you're not in the area.

That does make it more attractive ?
Anyway, I won't be in a position to consider these instruments for quite some time ☹

Bob-Dubery

Let me make one thing clear before I go any further: I have no affiliation with Marshall. I don't even deal with them. Ever. I have nothing against them and no experience of them - though I know people who spit on the floor when Marshall are mentioned.

I am uneasy here about the way words like "unethical" are being bandied about. Are we saying that a small, one-person enterprise operating from their home must be "ethical" (which may translate in this case as "easy on the wallet") whilst a chain store operating out of premises in a shopping mall is somehow presumed to not be "ethical"? If it's being suggested that both the small guy is always ethical but the big guy (and are they that big in SA?) is automatically not then that's something I can't buy into.

I had a look at Guitartone's price list. Quite interesting. They show a Gibson SG Standard at R12665 which looks... OK (and is the price if you collect from them) but that same guitar can be got (I checked) for R8081 in the USA at current exchange rates. Knock of the VAT that Guitartone build into the price they quote and you're still paying 37% above the odds - and I'd bet that Guitartone didn't pay R8081 for the instrument in the first place. I'm not knocking Guitartone in all of this, just pointing out that they make a profit ? which is what businesses usually aim to do.

I further note that guitars may be viewed by appointment. What does this tell us? Guitartone don't have a shop that you can just walk into on a whim. Marshall do, and that costs them money (staffing, rent, shopfitting etc).

The flip side of the coin though is the purchase chains that Alan describes. Can Guitartone have a much shorter chain? Possibly - if they are buying from a wholesaler in the USA. So assuming that when Gibson's are on sale at MM and the prices are as horrible as being speculated (though that will be BEFORE discount, so knock minimum 10% off and how negotiable at Guitartone's prices?) then can the costs of running a shop - IE the cost of providing us walk-in convenience - make that much of a difference?

Not that it's really my business how they get to their selling price. Any business can mark up as much as they want. That's not ipso factor unethical. We can weigh up the entire package that we are getting for our money and decide to go elsewhere if we think we can do better.

vic

Re. pricing of MM.....My guess is that the prices of the "run of the mill" models will be comparable within 15% or so to that of GT.... BUT when it comes to the "heavy weight" Custom Shop models the difference could be substantial...?. Let's rather wait and see.

Bob-Dubery

vic wrote Re. pricing of MM.....My guess is that the prices of the "run of the mill" models will be comparable within 15% or so to that of GT.... BUT when it comes to the "heavy weight" Custom Shop models the difference could be substantial...?. Let's rather wait and see.

That's not waiting and seeing. It's suggesting that MM will charge substantially more.

Bob-Dubery

X-rated Bob wrote I had a look at Guitartone's price list. Quite interesting. They show a Gibson SG Standard at R12665 which looks... OK (and is the price if you collect from them)

This is another example of the difficulties in comparing prices between a shopping mall chain store and a mom-and-pop operation. The latter can quote a price and say "that's our price if you collect from us". IE if you are in Durban and the seller is in Cape Town then you must bear the cost of getting the guitar from Cape Town to Durban. Marshall can't do that. They can't have a Durban price and a Cape Town price and a Jo'burg price etc etc. They would never hear the end of it if they listed any piece of gear at a higher price in one city than another. So they have to take less profit in some centres.

vic

X-rated Bob wrote
vic wrote Re. pricing of MM.....My guess is that the prices of the "run of the mill" models will be comparable within 15% or so to that of GT.... BUT when it comes to the "heavy weight" Custom Shop models the difference could be substantial...?. Let's rather wait and see.
That's not waiting and seeing. It's suggesting that MM will charge substantially more.

my statement above had two elements namely the word guess and a ? ... ? I'm just not sure how much it's gonna be (?)

nice to see you back in full force Bob ?

/edited for the sake of clarity/

Bob-Dubery

vic wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
vic wrote Re. pricing of MM.....My guess is that the prices of the "run of the mill" models will be comparable within 15% or so to that of GT.... BUT when it comes to the "heavy weight" Custom Shop models the difference could be substantial...?. Let's rather wait and see.
That's not waiting and seeing. It's suggesting that MM will charge substantially more.
my statement above had two elements namely the word guess and a ? ... ?

The question mark made no sense in any case in that context, and you still nailed your colours to the mast by suggesting that MM would charge substantially more. It's not a neutral position. If it were you wouldn't have let us know what your guess is.

vic

X-rated Bob wrote
vic wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
vic wrote Re. pricing of MM.....My guess is that the prices of the "run of the mill" models will be comparable within 15% or so to that of GT.... BUT when it comes to the "heavy weight" Custom Shop models the difference could be substantial...?. Let's rather wait and see.
That's not waiting and seeing. It's suggesting that MM will charge substantially more.
my statement above had two elements namely the word guess and a ? ... ?
The question mark made no sense in any case in that context, and you still nailed your colours to the mast by suggesting that MM would charge substantially more. It's not a neutral position. If it were you wouldn't have let us know what your guess is.

? = I'm not sure how much it's gonna be...never intended to be neutral....OK..OK....so let me then re-phrase..."Let's rather wait and see how much MORE will MM charge than GT for the Custom Shop models in particular." ?

/edit/ for the sake of clarity.

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