Idea's for playing with Elecronic "musicians" (aka DJ's)

V8

Hi all,

Have a gig planned for a corporate function in Dec. Playing guitar with/over deephouse/ambient tunes and wondering if anyone has a few idea's for me? I'm thinking I need to explore different sounds aside from my "top three" POD X3 Live patchs ('68 Plexi w/TS9, Diety Crunch w/Fuzz Face, Piezo Acoustic Sim).

SRV/Jimi/Albert King riffs/licks work, James Brown/Prince/RHCP 16ths work but not all the way for 3 hours! - I'm wondering if anyone can inspire some different idea's & sounds from my amateur setup? Fender Strat (w/Kinman Woodstock Plus pup's in K7 config), Pod Live X3, Hardwire Delay/Looper, Crybass Bass Wah & Boss PW-10 V-Wah.

We've done a little dub stuff with one delay feeding into the other and using the synth "models" on the X3, but not quite inspiring. Would love to get a funky horn sound for chord stabs and a synth-y keyboard without resorting to midi! Alas, I'm not much of a tweaker, and I get a bit frustrated with a latency > 6ms and the crappy tracking of the POD's synth "models" (I recall Alan educating me on why).

Aside from taking along a bass guitar ? - any other ideas?

Thanks,

Myron (aka V8)

[deleted]

I'm also very interested in this. I have my own ideas for playing with DJ's, but it will be a while before I test those waters.

I'm completely clueless to the workings of pedals and effects, as I only use acoustic, so I can offer no help there. From what I understand you play over ambient stuff, and want to diversify your guitar. All I can say is perhaps try out different genres to play over, change the mood that way. What about going for a bit of folky gypsy music, something that can give a new twist to your normal guitar playing. You could do different styles from all over the world perhaps. Hm, or you could just do what you originally intended on doing.

Good luck with your venture. If you ever play in Cape Town I'd like to come have a listen.

Dwerg

I don't know if this sounds a bit cliché, but a good ambient music example, to my mind anyway, is stuff like the Ministry of Sound - Chillout Sessions
Many fresh remakes of songs most people know mixed with new stuff

It's maybe a bit late, but a monome is an awesome tool for doing the kind of thing your looking for, in my humble noob opinion

see http://monome.org/

AlanRatcliffe

Oh goodie - this is right up my alley (as the choirboy said to the... no... scratch that).

I'm not sure of the X3's capabilities (never spent any time with one) - but I suspect that'll be your limiting factor. Basically you have to spend time fiddling to find stuff that works for both you and the X3. For really good stuff of this nature you need to have multiple signal paths layered together, which only Guitar Rig can do (and Boss GT-10 to a lesser degree). Forget natural sounds like horns, etc. when you are processing guitar sounds. The best you will do is analog synth type sounds. It does help if you know a little about synthesis, but it's not essential.

Here's a few pointers:

* Fuzz (especially without amp or speaker simulation) gives you good broadband signal to fiddle around with other effects on top. It works like a square wave oscillator in subtractive synthesis.
* Analog octavers are good for single note octave down stuff (much faster than harmonizers) and already sound very synthy. Their glitchiness when playing more than one note together can be an advantage too.
* Reverse delays and reverse reverbs are great for pads (especially if they can octave shift and you crank the feedback/regeneration).
* Layering sounds with octave up/octave down pitch shifting is always good to fatten up a sound (especially if it has predelays).
* Try an autowah/envelope follower for funkier sounds. In general, think of any wah as a band pass filter that can be controlled with your foot.
* Use Phasers and flangers for "sweep" sounds (better after distortion/fuzz in this application).
* Use tremolo to "chop" and "stutter" the sound.
* A neck pickup through overdrive with a fast leslie sim (or rotovibe in a pinch) can do fairly convincing organ sounds (also try shifting it before the leslie)

This is a stretch, but if your DJ has something that outputs wordclock, you can synch all your delay and modulation tempos to follow whatever tempo he is working with. If this makes no sense to you or your DJ, forget I said anything. ? Otherwise, if you know the tempo of each piece of music, write your patches with the correct delay times to synch.

Just remembered this: http://www.guitarforum.co.za/recordings/fx-clips/ - it's a demo, description and clips I did with Guitar Rig (many of the things should be possible with other FX processors too).

V8

Viccy wrote: as I only use acoustic, so I can offer no help there.

Good luck with your venture. If you ever play in Cape Town I'd like to come have a listen.

Heya Viccy, oddly enough it's for a gig in PTA, but we live in Slaapstad. The DJ is "AfterlifeAV" and did all the visuals for the electronic floor @ Rocking the Daisies (ans Sasha's local tour) so I reckon we'll test drive the concept local before taking it upcountry to a 'paying' (lol) gig.

Btw, I play 40% acoustic and 55% electric and 5% bass - something about a acoustic I cannot replicate on electric. Did think about doing Bossa Nova(ish) backing's on the nylon string and more etheral steel string stuff, but limited by the amount of stuff I can lug around ☹

thanks,

V8

V8

Dwerg wrote: I don't know if this sounds a bit cliché, but a good ambient music example, to my mind anyway, is stuff like the Ministry of Sound - Chillout Sessions
Many fresh remakes of songs most people know mixed with new stuff

It's maybe a bit late, but a monome is an awesome tool for doing the kind of thing your looking for, in my humble noob opinion

see http://monome.org/

Hi Dwerg,

The MoS chillout sessions is what I am thinking - but a little more 'song based', 8/12/16 bar progressions with playing dynamics (imho - that's why I'm there) in real time. Typically elec "muso's" think 32 bars, fill, 32 bars, breakdown, may a little drum fill every 8/16 inbetween - *yawn* ? From sitting with a few good DJ's, they do mix dynamics in, but unless you personally know the tune(s), you can't appreciate the 'musicality'/creativity of the DJ - but a guy throttling a guitar on stage is a little more visual?

Monome :: I have seen one of these reviewed in Sound on Sound mag a few years ago. Love the idea, but I'm tweak averse so didn't really get into it (which is odd because the day job is programming) - but I like to plug into a cardboard box and get the sound I hear in my head. Lazzzy, yeah. How would you use it? For queing samples, changing FX, ?

thanks,

V8

[deleted]

The DJ is "AfterlifeAV" and did all the visuals for the electronic floor @ Rocking the Daisies

OOh, lucky you! I saw a video of some of those light shows and they were fantastic!

Good luck for the gig in Pretoria.

V8

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Oh goodie - this is right up my alley (as the choirboy said to the... no... scratch that).

Here's a few pointers:

Just remembered this: http://www.guitarforum.co.za/recordings/fx-clips/ - it's a demo, description and clips I did with Guitar Rig (many of the things should be possible with other FX processors too).

Whew Vicar =D,

Thanks for the notes on FX - I've RTFM'ed the POD manual a good few times and learn something new every fudge-ing time. But I know little on how to mix the FX together to get interesting sounds. Overall, I'm a bit dissapointed with the POD's FX capabilities/models (However for recording, it rocks - I love the simplicity) - as good stand-alone pedals seem to be higher quality (E.g. The Hardwire Delay/Looper blew my tiny mind the first time I used it).

Things I have tried ::

1. I do use the dual-signal path functionality on the X3 (send one to the guitar amp and the other to a floor monitor). I set up the guitar amp as normal and the floor monitor as a sub-octave of the original signal with the bass wah in that loop - love the floor shaking - can't get much joy with the other synth models though =(

2. Auto wah/Filter on POD leaves me absolutely cold. However on the cheep bass Zoom multi-fx it is inspiring!

3. Put the PW-10 (in vocal modelling mode) in front of the looper on the hardwire pedal, capture a little rthyhm figure (1-4 bars) and sweep that loop -ahem- rhythmically. Also sounds good with the bass wah & some delay.

So I ain't done much tweaking ?, although I'm now gonna try your suggestions in earnest - I see an onset of G.A.S - Been eyeing the large range of Electro-Harmonix pedals - especially the analog filters/synths (there's so many?).

Wordclock - Very good idea! Live, I typically use tap tempo to manually sync the tempo's - but getting sync automatically is a grand idea as I want him to be able to 'jog' the tempo 1/2-3bpm up/down during a set (but retain the pitch...eish) for dynamics. In that vein, We've been thinking of using the POD's midi out to control some of the AV/lighting FX (E.g. When I sweep with the POD's on board expression pedal), not set it up yet - this could be interesting as the POD has some cool uses for the expression pedal ('tweak' mode, assign any button on any FX to realtime input from the expression pedal) aside from volume/wah mode.

Have just d/led your clips - thanks! Will give these ears a reference point when tweaking, otherwise I tend to lose focus when seeking a sound. (Oh and I agree w/Norio - rather not be reminded about computers when playing music!)

I'll have to deliver that case of beer/bottle o' whisky/'poison of choice' sometime!

Myron

singemonkey

Idea's for playing with Elecronic "musicians" (aka DJ's)

1. Hand him or her a guitar

2. Demonstrate C, G, and D chords

?

V8

singemonkey wrote:
1. Hand him or her a guitar

2. Demonstrate C, G, and D chords

?

Haha, I usually use "Peter Gunn" theme tune for point two ?, asking a DJ to use more than two fingers on each hand is challenging...

AlanRatcliffe

V8 wrote: But I know little on how to mix the FX together to get interesting sounds.

That's down to lots of experimentation. The good news is that most of what you learn with any effect carries across to other brands - if you learn how to set a compressor properly the same rules apply to every compressor. Each has a few idiosyncrasies, but the basics of operation are the same.

good stand-alone pedals seem to be higher quality

You get good MultiFX too - TC Electronic, Eventide, et.al. and if you use more than one digital effect, you only have one or two D/A conversions with a multieffect. Doing things like timesynch with most stomp pedals is a nightmare and you lose the ability to program complete patches (even a pro switching system like a Bradshaw lacks the ability to change effect parameters and store them).

My biggest problem with floor multieffects is most have very limited processing capabilities - even with units like the Boss GT-10 and TC G-System. Rack is still the most powerful way to go. But, of course, with power and flexibility comes complexity and most people cant even program a floor unit properly.

1. I do use the dual-signal path functionality on the X3 (send one to the guitar amp and the other to a floor monitor).

Actually, I was referring to multiple parallel effects signal paths - the ability to split the signal into multiple chains, process each seperately and mix them together. For example, taking a clean sound with chorus, delay and reverb and mixing it with a distorted tone with wah and phaser. I've been known to use up to six parallel chains for special FX. :-[

Been eyeing the large range of Electro-Harmonix pedals - especially the analog filters/synths (there's so many?).

They have some of the more interesting effects available today. Just be aware that some of the more interesting ones like the HOG are monophonic and can't handle chords.

In that vein, We've been thinking of using the POD's midi out to control some of the AV/lighting FX

Oh Yeah! Once you go with MIDI for control and SMTPE timecode, you can control any other MIDI device - the only limit is your imagination. The other way round too - If you work with sequenced material, you can even program in all your guitar patch changes, light show and even pyrotechnics and not have to worry about anything other than playing your guitar. The downside once again is complexity, but once you have it all set up it works the same way every night.

V8

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: That's down to lots of experimentation. The good news is that most of what you learn with any effect carries across to other brands - if you learn how to set a compressor properly the same rules apply to every compressor. Each has a few idiosyncrasies, but the basics of operation are the same.

Ahhh, so finally I sat down the last week with your Guitar Rig clips from 2007 and experimented - days later I concluded that I know sweet ****** about FX :-[ Also that my recording setup (when DJ ain't present with ableton) is similarly challenged. Time to re-read all the articles on the forum - either that or only play acoustic from now on... ?

Got the following examples of what I typically do w/FX. Apologies for levels of recordings.

1. http://www.quickshare.co.za/files/vd80gm2o/V8_ableton_sample.mp3.html

Bass, guitar & fruity loops drums : All done in ableton, took some live recordings, DJ cut & looped everything into a song. Recorded the DI from a Zoom B2 (bass FX) pedal.

2. http://www.quickshare.co.za/files/t8duwm0e/V8_delaywah_sample.mp3.html

Drums & single delay'ed guitar track : using the POD X3 Live w/Bass wah, I do a lot off playing off the delay. Mild crunch from a TS9, delay kicks in @ around 27s, bass wah kicks in @ around 45s.

3. http://www.quickshare.co.za/files/smciec34/V8_loopwah_bass_sample.mp3.html

Using the POD X3 Live & hardwire looper, Two guitar tracks, trying to copy some of the FX in your guitar rig samples. Guitar 1 is a loop that I've run through the bass wah to get a rhythmic feeling. Guitar 2 (I need to crank the volume in the mix) is a buzz wave that I tweaked a little. Missing the blues-ish lead that I just couldn't nail as I was too lazy to quantize the ryhthm clips ???

and most people cant even program a floor unit properly.

Eish, :-[ - too true...

Actually, I was referring to multiple parallel effects signal paths - the ability to split the signal into multiple chains, process each seperately and mix them together. For example, taking a clean sound with chorus, delay and reverb and mixing it with a distorted tone with wah and phaser. I've been known to use up to six parallel chains for special FX.

Oppss, sorry - I misread completely. I've read a bit in Sound on Sound & seen a few DJ's use FX chains to lift the bass/synths to get that Trance 140bpm+ dum-dum-dum - but never thought about applying it to guitar (As you did in modulate.mp3). Although 6 FX chains...!

Oh Yeah! Once you go with MIDI for control and SMTPE timecode, you can control any other MIDI device - the only limit is your imagination. The other way round too - If you work with sequenced material, you can even program in all your guitar patch changes, light show and even pyrotechnics and not have to worry about anything other than playing your guitar. The downside once again is complexity, but once you have it all set up it works the same way every night.

I went back to the post(s) where you mentioned the TerraTec Axon (midi) alternative. Still think that's a great idea in the long term, is a serious bit of kit that I'd love to get stuck into. Gotta quit the day job 1st...lol...Although, for now I really should set up a Laptop based solution as a parallel to the POD.

I completely dug the Jazzlie guitar rig sample - the leslie 'organ' sounds (and the rhythm you're playing!) made me drool - Alas, the POD has a poor model of this - 'rotary drum w/horn', the 'SINE Chorus' was closer in sound. So I've done a some reading on "Guitar Rig" and they've recently released a cheap 'mobile' version - limited functionality from the 'essential package' (No looper, distortion pedals, wahs or envelop filters) - but a cheap way to start looking into this.

Lots more homework it seems,

Greets, Myron