FruitarGeek
So I remember a while back seeing good ol Jeremy de Tolly (thinking of Jack Parrow song now) on stage, and looking at the 4 instruments, I could see each of them playing their respective parts , i.e. Vox,guitar, bass and drums. But there was a synth in the back. This kinda annoyed me, cause I always had the 'arrogant' attitude that real music is made on the spot, and they shouldnt have to rely on a backtrack CD.
Now the other day, a friend and I were writting stuff for our band, and it came to my attention that a string ensemble would sound great, yet we cant afford to hire a classical power group, so we would rely on a keyboard to provide the sounds. But, what if we dont have a keyboard player? We could record the strings in studio and have them played back during the song, thus doing exactly what I once despised and relying on backtracks.
So what I want to know is, how does it work? Who controls when they start, as far as I can see its the drummer, cause he has to play with the metronome to the tracks, or else it would all be horribly outta sync. and on what format would the backings come on, like a CD you give to the engineer, or on an iPod?
AlanRatcliffe
It's unlikely to be a CD unless it's a vocal artist with all the backing on CD. It's usually a MIDI sequencer driving a synth for whatever extra sounds are needed - from one instrument to many. The sequencer also lets you sync to other stuff in a bigger show - programmed lighting sequences for instance, even if you're not using it for synth stuff.
If you have a drummer, it's a little complex to do it properly, so only the drummer hears the click. It means at least having a synth with multiple outputs and a mixer with more than one monitor send, so you can give the drummer a different monitor mix with the click, while keeping it out of the other monitors and the FOH sound.
I played with a sequenced bass for a while in one band (we had a keyboardist, but he wanted to free up his left hand for other stuff). I programmed in slightly simplified drum parts instead of a straightforward click (easier to follow). We sent the bass MIDI to the keyboardist's rig which went through the PA and monitors, while the drum MIDI came to me at the drum kit. I had another synth module for the drum click and a mixer to mix the drum click with my monitor feed as well as drive my headphones. Worked well...
Keira-WitherKay
. This kinda annoyed me, cause I always had the 'arrogant' attitude that real music is made on the spot, and they shouldnt have to rely on a backtrack CD.
oh it's not an aragont attitude to dislike the use of backtracks........... remember the use of backtracks puts musicians outa work......... if you need a bassist hire one in......... or if you doing casual gigs i'm sure you'll find one..... but unless you doing dance music as in "house" / trance ect whereit's essential ..............try not fall into that trap of using backtracks.. cos once you start i know many muso's who are now so addicted to them they can't perform successfully without them...... it can make one very lazy as a musician ........
cos yes it works but it's a bit like buying cheap stuff thats made in sweatshops....... you do save in the short term but at some others expense.........
and use em to rehearse with as in playing guitar at home . they a great tool for that
anyway just something to think about ................and by your post it won't be a new thought ..........you already had this position ..
AlanRatcliffe
Now look what you've done Fruitar Geek - you've set Keira off again... ?
guitarboy2828
I felt the same way when I saw Tree63 live. Great band, they are super skilled musicians, however in most of their songs they have some keyboard parts which sound awesome and the song wouldn't be the same without it, why they don't just hire some guys to play those parts, I duno..
But, they have a sound engineer that travels with them to every gig and he is the guy in the sound booth and he's the one that syncs the midi sequencer.. Not the drummer..
AlanRatcliffe
Doesn't matter who starts/stops the sequencer, the drummer still has to follow the click, which is a skill in itself. You have to learn not only to keep to the timing, but how to push and pull around the timing to keep the feel.
You also have to learn how to fix mistakes - if you come out of a fill a 16th note ahead (which does happen *cough*), you have to learn how to drop the extra 16th note by purposely playing a bar a 16th short or slowing down so the sequencer catches up a bar or two in and then speeding up again once the sequencer catches up (and as you're not following the click, it becomes easier to overshoot and end up a note behind). If you're not careful, you end up see-sawing around the click, sometimes ahead, sometimes behind (sounds worse than having a real bassist sometimes).
Of course, there is another way to go about adding in synth parts without a keys player - guitar synth. But that's another Pandora's kettle of different coloured fish yet again.
Keira-WitherKay
? @ alan well if i don't champion '100%live music who will" it all starts with one voice .....and seems by guitarboys comment there's at least some support ....
and btw it's so succesful in many clubs abroad that they won't hire a band using backtracks anymore.......... just trying to do the same here ....... then finally drummers /bassists and keyboard players will be able to make a living outa music on the club/pub circuit too .......cos every pub has a guitarist/singer and backtracks............ so most guitarists are pro backtracks cos it's more money in their pocket ..............but at what cost to other muso's
? but yes it is my favourite cause.....
AlanRatcliffe
Few use backtracks by choice Keira. Always better to have the real thing (even if it's "just" a key player), but not always possible due to finances, performance or rehearsal space limitations. Most bands/venues have limited resources, if they could afford/fit/justify a band with a 40pc orchestra just for the songs that need it, they would. But they can't. So they don't.
Even the much vilified small pub owner - he's usually only got space for one or two musicians, but a bar full of patrons (full of bar) demanding full band sound. Demand he uses only solo artists or duos without backtracks (which wouldn't work in that noisy environment anyway) and he'll reach for the CD player as the next best thing, and two more musos are out a gig.
In the case of pro orchestral players - in some countries like the UK they have unionised themselves and ensured that they always get paid handsomely when they play or practice (regardless of skill level, dedication or whether the horn section have taken a liquid lunch). The result being that they have priced themselves out of the market and ensured that no-one uses them unless they absolutely have to, or can afford to keep them on staff (like the BBC, run on tax money and licensing fees - which is why so many UK TV series have orchestral themes - they have to keep the Beeb orchestra busy, earning their keep).
Warren
Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Even the much vilified small pub owner - he's usually only got space for one or two musicians, but a bar full of patrons (full of bar) demanding full band sound. Demand he uses only solo artists or duos without backtracks (which wouldn't work in that noisy environment anyway) and he'll reach for the CD player as the next best thing, and two more musos are out a gig.
We face this problem with our band ATM. 5 piece: too big for the majority of pubs or small venues, even with the electric drum kit taking up less room.
Keira-WitherKay
well alan the jhb scene is in transition .i'm glad to say.............
i seldom see backtracks except in some of the casino's most bands are live.even just duo's trio's very encouraging and they rock loud and fill a room with sound........... so yeah a vibey solo / duo / trio is possible and happening.......... and lets be honest most 40 pc string parts can be left out of most songs and still retain the feel / vibe anyway ........ this is something that will take it's course
and the other up side is most of jhb's and pretoria's music in the "music bars" are original too............. fabulous and encouraging..........
and btw there is a whole movement of the "new generation" young muso's most who hold degree's in music who are also on a mission to keep the scene 100% live........... maybe a few small local pubs and casino's still do the solo act with backtracks but all the other shall we say more mainline venues up here use live bands and amazingly in all genres of music from acoustic world music to jazz to rock to blues to alternative.......... as i said it's happening slowly
but yes lets just say this will be a process the industry will undergo....... much like the gain in popularity of original music over a cover band ........... i can recall back in 90's people flocked to see cover bands......... not anymore the lines are now outside the original music venues.......... and look how competitive the original scene has become......... it's amazing how SA music industry has grown in only 25 yrs...........
kayDUB
Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Of course, there is another way to go about adding in synth parts without a keys player - guitar synth. But that's another Pandora's kettle of different coloured fish yet again.
Open it! Open it! maybe another thread? :-[
guitarboy2828
I do agree with Alan! Most bands as I see it use backing tracks as that is the only option. It would be mine if I started playing little shows. There are just NO musicians in this little town of mine.. I have searched for some just to jam with, nothing.. And, it's easier to get along with a backing track than 5 other people! ?
HOWEVER, bands like tree63 and these big names who don't lack space, money, or anything, why do they use sequences? I don't get that? I'll have to ask John when I see him again! ?
singemonkey
I'm conflicted. I reckon it makes sense to use backing tracks for 1 or 2 songs - for some kind of effect (like the Egyptian National Orchestra or something) that you couldn't otherwise get.
I can also sympathise with people who're at their wits end with musicians who've disappointed them, and maybe just don't know who to call on.
But mostly I think it's good to rise above the limitations of how many instruments you have playing. Forcing yourself to deal with your limitations is often much more successful than putting a recording into the story. Bands like The Doors or The White Stripes made unique music by compensating in-band for a missing "crucial" instrument.
vic
You know what I dislike about the whole backtrax thing is the fact that so many artists rely completely on these for backing. So often nowadays you see a professional singer, alone on stage, doing his/her thing with a backtrack...it's so damn sterile. BUT the crowds love it...they are obviously not interested to see/hear a proper band. Sometimes I wonder if they even notice the absence of real musicians on stage.
What is nice about these tracks is that you don't have to look over your shoulder to indicate timing to the drummer or being stressed up that someone is going to play the wrong chord.... :?
And now you can even get a harmonizer.......Bob's your Uncle. ?
Riaan
Is this a local phenomenon - the use of backtracks on shows by pro singers - or is it widespread overseas also?
While I understand the reasons why artists may be forced to do shows like this, one may well ask why bother going to the show instead of just listening to the CD at home, if everything except the vocal performance is pre-recorded. And often, the live performance often sounds exactly like the studio version too and the artist may even have been miming for all we know...
An unplugged version of the performance, with just a piano or acoustic guitar for instance, even if it means a slight rework of the song to make it work, is worth much more IMO than a live version that is absolutely identical to the studio version. Jackson Brown is a good example of how nice a one man show can be.
vic
Riaan wrote:
Is this a local phenomenon - the use of backtracks on shows by pro singers - or is it widespread overseas also?
While I understand the reasons why artists may be forced to do shows like this, one may well ask why bother going to the show instead of just listening to the CD at home, if everything except the vocal performance is pre-recorded. And often, the live performance often sounds exactly like the studio version too and the artist may even have been miming for all we know...
An unplugged version of the performance, with just a piano or acoustic guitar for instance, even if it means a slight rework of the song to make it work, is worth much more IMO than a live version that is absolutely identical to the studio version. Jackson Brown is a good example of how nice a one man show can be.
Riaan you are now argueing like a muso...Joe and Jill Soap don't care. That's why it's irellevant to try and get THAT tone from our guitars on stage. Only musos will appreciate/crit our efforts. We play for one another... ?
I don't know how widespread the use of backtrax is, all I know is that it's alive and well (esp amongst
Afrikaans pro singers)
Ray
Is this the same as saying dont use code generators because you're keeping programmers (often not so competent) programmer out of work?
Bob-Dubery
vic wrote:
Riaan you are now argueing like a muso...Joe and Jill Soap don't care. That's why it's irellevant to try and get THAT tone from our guitars on stage. Only musos will appreciate/crit our efforts. We play for one another... ?
I'm not so sure.
I think that listeners, if they are listening, may react to all sorts of things without knowing what they're reacting to. Tone is important, not just for reasons of vanity and for impressing any guitarists who may be in the crowd. It's part of your musical voice.
I recently went to a concert in London that had a half-time break for a pee and a pot. I don't know exactly what happened (I was watching the stage, not the sound desk) but at various points in the show there were subtle changes to the sound. EG It got markedly better immediately after the break, got muddy again at one point and then got clear again. These are not big changes we are talking about, mostly (as I heard it) related to the vocals rather than the overall balance. I'm not any kind of sound guy and can't tell you in any useful terms WHAT changed, but it did change and the audience did react - maybe not conciously but you could feel the energy in the room changing.
If you tried to play Sultans of Swing with an overdriven Les Paul sound the audience would probably notice, even if they don't understand that there are single-coil and double-coil pickups.
And you have to play for and to the audience. Not in terms of selling out artistically but in terms of trying to connect and communicate. THAT's what it's about. If it's not about that then we might as well just have jams in garages and have impeccable tones that nobody other than the guys we jam with ever hear.
DonovanB
singemonkey wrote:
mostly I think it's good to rise above the limitations of how many instruments you have playing. Forcing yourself to deal with your limitations is often much more successful than putting a recording into the story. Bands like The Doors or The White Stripes made unique music by compensating in-band for a missing "crucial" instrument.
I agree with this completely. Too many bands try add too much with instruments you don't have.
I like the idea of making do with what you have. If you are a 3 piece band, play like a 3 piece band. You all have to adjust the way you play to fill in the gaps. The same should go with other instruments as well.
