Serious musicians beware

MIKA-the-better-one · 2010-06-09T17:22:19+00:00

I have been talking about this for awhile, and you wouldnt believe how many ignorant bands still think major labels are the way to go... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment_and_arts/10272490.stm

[deleted]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but back to Lady Gaga. One thing I'd like to say, Some consider her an eccentric genius, but if she were fat, she'd really just be considered an eccentric.

Mozart was an eccentric genius, but the nature of his genius overshadowed his eccentricities. It's wishfull thinking to assume Lady Gaga's eccentricities are overshadowing her "genius".

DonovanB

Arjun Menon wrote Another anology is what Don King was to the sport of boxing ?

I did nothing of the sort... 8)

Warren

Viccy wrote Sorry to hijack the thread, but back to Lady Gaga. One thing I'd like to say, Some consider her an eccentric genius, but if she were fat, she'd really just be considered an eccentric.

Mozart was an eccentric genius, but the nature of his genius overshadowed his eccentricities. It's wishfull thinking to assume Lady Gaga's eccentricities are overshadowing her "genius".

I think that the word "genius" is one of those words Bob was talking about -> it has been overused to the point of undermining its value in everyday conversation. ?

chris77

I do not have any inside experience or insight into the music industry, but surely the big labels cant be all bad? They produce a lot of crap (my idea of crap might be your idea of great and vice verse btw), but a few great bands also make it through. If a band wants to make interesting and original music soaked in integrity and style then they should be free to do so, but also remember that not everybody will like it and that a mediocre band with catchy choruses will be a helluva lot easier to sell to the public and will make a lot more money. Not the studios fault that. Love it or loathe it, Pop music is popular because the majority of people like it. The internet wont change that, in fact it will only amplify it. No need to listen to a difficult album because you paid retail for it and now feel obliged to. Play 10sec of the demo, dont like, skip to next one, and so it goes until you find what you like and download it. Labels are obviously not the answer, but neither is a crapload of amateur indy guys churning out amateurish dribble and distributing it themselves. There will have to be compromises made somewhere along the line, but greed and pride will make them difficult to agree upon. Interesting times indeed.

evolucian

Alan Ratcliffe wrote
evolucian wrote Anyone here watched the documentary "Before the music dies" ?
A few times, I mentioned it earlier in the thread. A must see for anyone who wants to know what is happening in the industry.

Lol... ok... I must have missed that amidst the HUGE walls of text that lay before me ?

MIKA-the-better-one

Arjun Menon wrote Oh no, Mika, i'm with you on this one. I'm glad that there's law now about how studios treat actors. I only corrected that minor flaw in your reasoning with regards to Clockwork Orange.
The problem with the music biz is that there's too many variables as such, like who owns the lyrics, who owns the lyrics on paper, who owns the song, who owns it on record etc etc etc.
And then the fact, that everybody wants to make a quick buck and there's no artist development as such (which is something Alan raised).
Another anology is what Don King was to the sport of boxing ?

Sorry sorry, I am not used to having Allies on GFSA, this is very new for me ?

Malkav

Lady Gaga's image is just a commercialised version of what Marilyn Manson was doing during his Golden Age Of Grotesque stage...In fact I honestly think her goal is to be the pop version of him, there are so many moments in her music videos that are honestly cut and paste from his. The whole Mickey Mouse look at the end of her Paparazzi video is entirely ripped from Manson.

Sean

Viccy wrote Sorry to hijack the thread, but back to Lady Gaga. One thing I'd like to say, Some consider her an eccentric genius, but if she were fat, she'd really just be considered an eccentric.

Mozart was an eccentric genius, but the nature of his genius overshadowed his eccentricities. It's wishfull thinking to assume Lady Gaga's eccentricities are overshadowing her "genius".

LOL, well said ? I have a friend who for some reason thinks highly of her , I shall definitely quote you ?

arjunmenon

Donovan Banks wrote
Arjun Menon wrote Another anology is what Don King was to the sport of boxing ?
I did nothing of the sort... 8)

Yeah, just keep tellin yourself that ?

arjunmenon

MIKA the better one wrote
Arjun Menon wrote Oh no, Mika, i'm with you on this one. I'm glad that there's law now about how studios treat actors. I only corrected that minor flaw in your reasoning with regards to Clockwork Orange.
The problem with the music biz is that there's too many variables as such, like who owns the lyrics, who owns the lyrics on paper, who owns the song, who owns it on record etc etc etc.
And then the fact, that everybody wants to make a quick buck and there's no artist development as such (which is something Alan raised).
Another anology is what Don King was to the sport of boxing ?
Sorry sorry, I am not used to having Allies on GFSA, this is very new for me ?

Ok, this is where i'm gonna have to be a bit of a devil's advocate. Think of it this way, if you were a big label and putting out money to finance a band and their operation (CDs, Tours, Promos, Marketing etc), wouldn't you want the money to come back doubled or tripled etc.
Think about it.
A lot of indie labels get snapped up by the big guys purely because they don't have the money to keep it going.
Also, big labels look at how they can increase their revenue and they will tap into niche markets and the wider pop market if thats what it takes.

Coming back to the whole studio-actor point, its like hedging your bets. If you put the actors on an hourly rate that you decide on, then either way you'd be safe (regardless of whether the movie tanked or not). As opposed to paying a star 20 million and not knowing how that money is going to come back to the studio/producers. That's why , now, its so important for studios to time the release of their movies carefully in order to get back as much as they can. In the 90's and 00's weekend boxoffice earnings determined whether a movie won or lost, regardless of whether its a good movie or not. I don't expect this format to change for a long time.
The really good movies tend to make money after they come out on DVD. A perfect example is Coppola's Apocalypse Now.
Again, because Hollywood churns out so much rubbish these days, bonus material on DVDs has become a major thing because they want people to go out and buy the DVDs regardless of whether they're great or so-so.

I would imagine this is the same scenario in the music biz, albeit with more variables.

[deleted]

I think that the word "genius" is one of those words Bob was talking about -> it has been overused to the point of undermining its value in everyday conversation.

Yes, sorry, let me rephrase. Lady Gaga is as genius as a door to door sales man.

Bob-Dubery

Arjun Menon wrote
MIKA the better one wrote
Arjun Menon wrote Oh no, Mika, i'm with you on this one. I'm glad that there's law now about how studios treat actors. I only corrected that minor flaw in your reasoning with regards to Clockwork Orange.
The problem with the music biz is that there's too many variables as such, like who owns the lyrics, who owns the lyrics on paper, who owns the song, who owns it on record etc etc etc.
And then the fact, that everybody wants to make a quick buck and there's no artist development as such (which is something Alan raised).
Another anology is what Don King was to the sport of boxing ?
Sorry sorry, I am not used to having Allies on GFSA, this is very new for me ?
Ok, this is where i'm gonna have to be a bit of a devil's advocate. Think of it this way, if you were a big label and putting out money to finance a band and their operation (CDs, Tours, Promos, Marketing etc), wouldn't you want the money to come back doubled or tripled etc.
Think about it.

Last night I have was chatting to my stepson who is fuelled with youthful righteous anger at capitalism, greed etc. I pointed out to him that, in fact, you have to allow people to make a profit because if they don't have the chance to do that the only incentive they have is to take themselves and their talents elsewhere.

I think my stance is one of the existing model needing to be modified - because the deals can be loaded against the artist - but not done away with completely.

arjunmenon

X-rated Bob wrote Last night I have was chatting to my stepson who is fuelled with youthful righteous anger at capitalism, greed etc. I pointed out to him that, in fact, you have to allow people to make a profit because if they don't have the chance to do that the only incentive they have is to take themselves and their talents elsewhere.
I think my stance is one of the existing model needing to be modified - because the deals can be loaded against the artist - but not done away with completely.

Agreed Bob, however, the whole "allowing people to make a profit" term is very subjective. How long is too long to see a return on an investment? Sure, the model needs modification for the better but on the flipside talented folks would run out places to take their talent to at some stage.

I quite like this topic for some strange reason.

Rob-dos

Donovan Banks wrote I disagree with them, and am starting to think the whole no label thing is too much.

Who are Radiohead to say that anyway? They owe the success of their last album to the 12 years of brand building that was done through a label. Nobody would give a stuff who they were if it wasn't for a label and those lame stabs in Creep. Thom Yorke would still be a lazy eyed emo singing in a pub on the corner.

Read this. I am tired of bands moaning about the very same people who came up with money for them to record in a top class studio and produce top class results. Now they just show what babies they really are and how little they understand about the corporate world.
Thats not to say every manager was perfect, but every manager wasn't greedy and stole. But it still kinda feels like one asking your father to buy you a car, then saying only wankers get cars from their fathers. Sure you can save up and buy your own. Bands can save up or get sponsorship to record an album but at some point or another, someone is going to have to liaise with radio station, record stores, printing companies, merchandise manufacturers and distributors and deal with release and tour schedules.

If the band are willing and smart enough to do it, then sure, but I get the feeling it would be nice for someone else to do that for you, so you can concentrate on making great music. You are probably not going to get the penetration into the market than you would have if you were affiliated with, say, a company with branches in 27 countries....

well said

Bob-Dubery

Well here's one man's view of the recording industry....

Feel that sting across your back and row, boys, row
Don’t wait for the whip to crack and row, boys, row
Is it wise to be moaning when the Captain comes?
Tip your hat and get grinning though you’re worn to the gums
Is it wise to be needy in the land of the free?
Is it wise to be bleeding in a shark-filled sea?

Seven years of bad luck
Should have read the small print

Save my soul, save my soul
I’m chained below, chained below
Carving sailors’ little keepsakes
Out of teeth and nails and driftwood
Got to keep the old ship moving
Ploughing through the Sea of Cortez
Living skeletons for neighbours

Hear the bosun beat the drum and row, boys, row
Slavery till Kingdom Come and row, boys, row
Is it wise to be asking for a morsel more
When you see what they done to them what asked before?
Is it wise to be kneeling with your arse poking free?
Is it wise to be bleeding in a shark-filled sea?

Richard Thompson - Row, Boys, Row

singemonkey

Ah. I thought it was about the rat-race in general.

MIKA-the-better-one

Viccy wrote
I think that the word "genius" is one of those words Bob was talking about -> it has been overused to the point of undermining its value in everyday conversation.
Yes, sorry, let me rephrase. Lady Gaga is as genius as a door to door sales man.

And you base this statement on??? because I very much doubt its on anything solid

All in all, in current form Record Companies are dting in general..... Its is now easier than ever to promote yourself, book yourself, and all in all be more independant, I dont mean this in a way that I am anto establishment or trying to bring down corprate giants!!! I love Coca Cola!!!
But As a musician, or yound ones for that, Ile talk to bands who think, they must write crap music to get on crap radio to get crap airplay, and pick up a dying record company, because they think thats the only way to go......

I think I would listen to thom yorke.... why because ..... he has been around music a long time, and judging from previous interviews and actions he knows whats going on........ Radiohead actually broke there contract.. and lost money......

Did anyone read the Steve albini article??? anyone???

singemonkey

MIKA the better one wrote
Viccy wrote
I think that the word "genius" is one of those words Bob was talking about -> it has been overused to the point of undermining its value in everyday conversation.
Yes, sorry, let me rephrase. Lady Gaga is as genius as a door to door sales man.

And you base this statement on??? because I very much doubt its on anything solid

Easy tiger. She's saying that Lady Gaga's no genius as an artist. Do you really disagree? And what is solid that a person can base these opinions on? These are not truth statements like, "The Parlotones wear make-up." These are artistic judgements that rest on our conception of where these musicians fit into politics, fashion, philosophy - very hard things to say anything about that you can actually prove.

All in all, in current form Record Companies are dting in general.....

They're what now?

Its is now easier than ever to promote yourself, book yourself, and all in all be more independant, I dont mean this in a way that I am anto establishment or trying to bring down corprate giants!!! I love Coca Cola!!!

There you go. But a few Indian farmer's wives whose husbands committed suicide because the company lowered the water table around their plant in Kerala, leaving them destitute, might have stronger grounds for disliking Coca Cola than you have for disliking EMI.

But As a musician, or yound ones for that,

Exsqueeze me? Baking powder?

Ile talk to bands who think, they must write crap music to get on crap radio to get crap airplay, and pick up a dying record company, because they think thats the only way to go......

Dude. I honestly don't know what this means.

I think I would listen to thom yorke.... why because ..... he has been around music a long time, and judging from previous interviews and actions he knows whats going on........ Radiohead actually broke there contract.. and lost money......

That's fine man. People have just been suggesting that the story is complex and has shades of grey. That's about it. Nobody's calling you or Thom Yorke idiots, just that their opinions differ.

Did anyone read the Steve albini article??? anyone???

Well since you put it like that, I'll dash right off and read it ?

Bob-Dubery

Mika, parts of your post are unintelligible.

Mika's not the only culprit of course. We get many posts here that are so poorly punctuated, where so little care is taken over spelling that it's hard for the reader to figure out what the author is tying to say.

Which is a pity, presumably if you went to the trouble of typing it up you think it's worth reading.

We have rules in music. We work in scales, in keys. in time signatures, with notes that have values. Those structures give the music form and make it understandable. They make it music rather than just random noise. Grammar and spelling (for all, since Pink Floyd, we don't need no education) do the same for written and spoken language.

MIKA-the-better-one

Sorry guys, I wrote that in a rush last night, at like 12pm...... and I dont proof read because.... well I am lazy........... Um let metry and decipher what i wrote....
Lady Gaga= genius because she was smart enough to capatalise on the same thing all other shock rock did, but ontop of this plays bass guitar, piano, guitar, sings..... and from what i understand did this on her album as well as other songs she wrote for other artists.....

Record companies Are dying in general...... which is true I believe.... they cant make money like they used to....... and record stores (cd stores) are estimated to close in the next 5 years, or make a conversion to games and dvds....

My comment on coco cola... explains i am no anti establishment person........ The coca cola was a proof :-[........... Farmers very sad

The next quote illudes me i dont know what meant

I talk to bands alot who think that the only way to make it in music is to get on a big record label.. this makes me sad becasue this is not true......

Thom yorke = cool

Go read that article !!!!

Sorry for the Spelling mistakes......

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