Request for proof-reading and/or comments

Bob-Dubery

Hi all,

I am preparing a little lesson on some introductory finger picking. This follows on from X-Stock where, during the workshop session, I played a little piece of Stephen Stills' "Four and Twenty". There was some interest in this, and it was a little step up from the work shop because it has a little syncopation and is in drop D.

So anyways... I've recorded a video of some of the picks and chords required for that song, and have also written out a tab.

I just want to be sure that the tab actually matches what I play in the video.

Tab and score is at http://www.box.net/shared/7gxvuque2q. This was done with PowerTab, and there are some constraints there in having multiple parts and indicating that notes should be allowed to ring, so I am more concerned with the accuracy of the tab than of the score.

The video....

For those of you itching to get stuck in, this is NOT the complete lesson. I need to prepare some notes to go with this so hold your horses, but in the meantime I hope some kind people will verify the tab.

Thanks

Bob

racman

Thx Bob, will try it out later this morning and verify for you. Keep 'em coming please.

singemonkey

Don't see the video Bob... ???

Bob-Dubery

singemonkey wrote Don't see the video Bob... ???

Well it's a bit gloomy and maybe in need of some tweaking to compensate for the dark and stormy night, but it's not THAT gloomy. I was having problems watching it embedded earlier, but I just gave it another whirl and it seems OK now.

singemonkey

Cool. Sounds really nice. I'll probably be behind the rest of the crew, but I'll find some time to learn it today and check the vs. the score.

Ray

Ok I wish I had the patience to get stuck in and notate some. And I'm waiting for the compelte lesson. Afraid I cant give an appraisal as not qualified to I believe. Now you teach me please, does it need a key signature?

[deleted]

Excellent Bob, is this your own composition? I assume so. Is related to four and twenty blackbirds? Well done for getting stuck into the notation program, I've been putting it off, but I must learn.

There were only two places that were different to the recording. In the second bar the melody line is: crotchet, dotted crotchet, dotted crotchet.

The last bar the melody line is crotchet, quaver, crotchet, dotted crotchet.

Other than that I'd put the little intermittent notes that you don't notate down to artistic interpretation.

You could probably put the key signature down as G maj., but perhaps I should stay off that subject.
Good luck with the rest of the song.

Bob-Dubery

Ray wrote Ok I wish I had the patience to get stuck in and notate some. And I'm waiting for the compelte lesson. Afraid I cant give an appraisal as not qualified to I believe. Now you teach me please, does it need a key signature?

I think this one should have. With no key signature you read as if it's in C, and this isn't.

I can't notate either really. I used Power Tab. You capture the tab and it generates the proper music from that.

Bob-Dubery

Viccy wrote Excellent Bob, is this your own composition? I assume so. Is related to four and twenty blackbirds?

It's by Stephen Stills, the "Stills" in "Crosby, Stills and Nash". Or "Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young". You can hear the original on the album Deja Vu

Well done for getting stuck into the notation program, I've been putting it off, but I must learn.

Well as explained you actually punch in the tab and it generates the notation from the tab. I don't "do" notation, hence my concern about the tab being right.

There were only two places that were different to the recording. In the second bar the melody line is: crotchet, dotted crotchet, dotted crotchet.

The last bar the melody line is crotchet, quaver, crotchet, dotted crotchet.

Other than that I'd put the little intermittent notes that you don't notate down to artistic interpretation.

Well I want to use this for an on-line lesson, so it has to be correct - I don't want people thinking they can't read tab when the problem is that the tab doesn't match the example.

You could probably put the key signature down as G maj., but perhaps I should stay off that subject.

I already figured that one out. It doesn't figure out the key for you, you have to specify it, and of course it defaults to C maj.

You've touched on another oversight on my part. I just assumed that OF COURSE everybody knows 4 + 20.

Bob-Dubery

Viccy wrote There were only two places that were different to the recording. In the second bar the melody line is: crotchet, dotted crotchet, dotted crotchet.

Ja. Played it wrong for the recording. Well... not "wrong" but not quite what the lesson was going to cover. So another recording is called for, I'd rather re-record and leave the tab as is.

Thanks and well spotted ?

Bob

Bob-Dubery

Here's Stephen Stills doing it way back when

Hmmm.... my version is actually quite different.

[deleted]

Hmmm.... my version is actually quite different.

Ha ha, well, one or two things I picked up is that he doubles the top D (although that's according to the tuning you have it as) so after he plucks it with his thumb, he plays another quaver with his index finger. I think in your recording you play that quaver note as a G. And at the little turn around he plays three bottom D's as opposed to alternating top and bottom D's with the thumb.

You didn't play it wrong, considering that in the actual recording he alternates whether it starts on the off beat or the first beat as well, but it'll probably be easier to re-record as opposed to re-writing. The way he plays it in the recording when he starts on the first beat is closer to how you wrote it in bar 5 and 6.

The last bar the melody line is crotchet, quaver, crotchet, dotted crotchet.

Sorry I meant that to be second last bar.

I did not know this song. Lovely. What is it about being 24 though?

Ray

OK way back I did theory. So I can be so wrong but I see only one accidental in the key here. And that is F sharped. So if you gooi in the key signature for G maj then it is going to list all the C's as naturals iow accidentals in the scale. I'm questioning here to come up to speed - I'm not challenging hey. But I'm having trouble getting to lessons so maybe I can hijack a bit and learn if y'all would entertain.

Bob-Dubery

Ray wrote OK way back I did theory. So I can be so wrong but I see only one accidental in the key here. And that is F sharped. So if you gooi in the key signature for G maj then it is going to list all the C's as naturals iow accidentals in the scale. I'm questioning here to come up to speed - I'm not challenging hey. But I'm having trouble getting to lessons so maybe I can hijack a bit and learn if y'all would entertain.

I don't think so. G is "one sharp". As you say, this is F sharp. So all the other notes in the G major scale are naturals and the Cs will not be accidentals.

It's the presence of the occasional C that dissuaded me from using a D signature, despite the D drone that runs through most of this.

Bob-Dubery

Viccy wrote
Hmmm.... my version is actually quite different.
Ha ha, well, one or two things I picked up is that he doubles the top D (although that's according to the tuning you have it as) so after he plucks it with his thumb, he plays another quaver with his index finger. I think in your recording you play that quaver note as a G. And at the little turn around he plays three bottom D's as opposed to alternating top and bottom D's with the thumb.

You didn't play it wrong, considering that in the actual recording he alternates whether it starts on the off beat or the first beat as well, but it'll probably be easier to re-record as opposed to re-writing. The way he plays it in the recording when he starts on the first beat is closer to how you wrote it in bar 5 and 6.

I've heard 3 versions of this by Stills, and he never quite plays it the same. So I lose no sleep ?

I did not know this song. Lovely. What is it about being 24 though?

Stills was 24 when he wrote the song.

Ray

X-rated Bob wrote
Ray wrote OK way back I did theory. So I can be so wrong but I see only one accidental in the key here. And that is F sharped. So if you gooi in the key signature for G maj then it is going to list all the C's as naturals iow accidentals in the scale. I'm questioning here to come up to speed - I'm not challenging hey. But I'm having trouble getting to lessons so maybe I can hijack a bit and learn if y'all would entertain.
I don't think so. G is "one sharp". As you say, this is F sharp. So all the other notes in the G major scale are naturals and the Cs will not be accidentals.

It's the presence of the occasional C that dissuaded me from using a D signature, despite the D drone that runs through most of this.

Yes , I got a bit mixed up there. it's D with the c#. Cheers.

Fingerpicker

CSN use EEEEBE tuning for 4+20 and for Suite: Judy Blue Eyes.

When they were out here (+-15 years ago?) I went to listen to them at Ellis Park, and, since I was down there on business the following week, I heard them in Cape Town as well. They happened to be flying back to JNB midday Saturday, same flight as me. I took a note of Stephen Stills's seat number and then sent a piece of paper down the plane with his seat number on. I had asked him what tuning he used for Suite Judy Blue Eyes. EEEEBE. At JNB International he seemed to be hanging out on his own waiting for his baggage so I went up to him and we spoke for about half an hour about music and things, thanks to our slow baggage handlers. He said he also uses that tuning for 4 and 20. I have also heard him play a few different versions. The version I do is actually by Tony Rice, using a dropped D tuning, similar to your version.

You must try EEEEBE, the guitar really rings. B is the 2nd string.

Bob-Dubery

Fingerpicker wrote
You must try EEEEBE, the guitar really rings. B is the 2nd string.

Which of those are tuned up to E and which down? I am a little concerned that the sound I hear might be that elusive, unforgettable sound a string makes right before it snaps.

Bob-Dubery

Well duh! I drew me a little diagram and it's clear the only way to do it is that 5 and 3 are tuned DOWN and 4 goes UP.

Some googling has revealed that Stills also used this on "Carry On". He apparently called it "Palmer Tuning" after Bruce Palmer, the bass player in Buffalo Springfield.

Long before I knew anything at all about altered tunings I always loved the sound that Stills got on his acoustic guitar. The tunings he uses allow him to make use of a drone and give some of his arrangements an almost Indian flavour. I think that tuning also makes for very different sympathetic resonation - which also contributes to the sound.

I should try this one out. Sometimes you can't quite get things right unless you use the appropriate tuning (eg much of Nick Drake's output). I remember trying to work out Dylan's "Buckets Of Rain" and getting close but no cigar. I was in drop-d. Turns out he was using EAEGBE.

4+20 is another such case. My drop-d version is close but not quite the same. Which is OK really, but sometimes it's fun to figure out how the original was played and you can learn a couple of things from that, or learn about things that a certain tuning can do for you.

David Crosby must have been at it as well, getting some very rich sounds on songs like "Guiniverre".

Fingerpicker

EEEEBE Tuning

6th string stays put
5th string goes down, give a nice jangly contrast to the 6th string, same note
4th string goes up
3rd string goes down
2nd string stays put
1st string stays put

Makes Suite Judy Blue Eyes a hell of a lot easier than it sounds.
Hope this helps.