Acoustic guitar for Church

guitarboy2828 · 2010-04-19T23:33:15+00:00

I'm a music leader who has, up to this point, played on an awesome yamaha guitar.. Love the feel and tone of this guitar.. Really is awesome. However, it doesn't have a built in pickup. So I've been using a dean markley soundhole slot in pick up. This works ok, but would like to get something slightly better. So, I'm wondering, should I get a guitar tech to install a pick up into this guitar? Will it alter the tone at all? If it will, i'd rather keep this as a jamming/at home recording guitar, as I really love it and its a great guitar to play. Then, option 2 is obviously buy a new guitar.. This option always seems more appealing. So my serious question now comes into play. What guitar should i be looking at? Most worship leaders have Martins, taylors and gibsons. I have played a couple taylors, liked them, but for the price, didn't find them all to wonderful. Then you get guitars like cort and ibanez which are significantly cheaper and have a great sound and playability. So, what's the big difference between the two? So, for someone whose playing at church, not really recording seriously, is it worth getting a taylor? Even a larrivee? Thoughts, what should I be looking at? Let's say price wasn't really an issue, BUT, i'm not going to pay R50 000 for a guitar. ?

DonovanB

Conrad wrote Dude that is a fallacy...what was your opinion of your guitar before you saw the price?
It's illogical to attach less value to the sound now because you saw other guitars cost more.

Ah GAS is not logical. It is the overwhelming irrationality that becomes the state of mind. The instant you even think you could use a new or different instrument the ball rolls and there's no stopping it. It is a virus that gnaws at you saying things like, "That guitar has better electronics," or "This one is better quality," and even sometimes "It just looks so cool."

you apply logic to other life problems such as Maths or engineering. We all know that a good musician (which most of us aspire to be) can make great music on any instrument. But we have the virus, the Musical Instrument Virus, MIV. Otherwise knows as Gear Acquiring Income Demise Syndrome, GAIDS.

Conrad

Donovan Banks wrote
Conrad wrote Dude that is a fallacy...what was your opinion of your guitar before you saw the price?
It's illogical to attach less value to the sound now because you saw other guitars cost more.
Ah GAS is not logical. It is the overwhelming irrationality that becomes the state of mind. The instant you even think you could use a new or different instrument the ball rolls and there's no stopping it. It is a virus that gnaws at you saying things like, "That guitar has better electronics," or "This one is better quality," and even sometimes "It just looks so cool."

you apply logic to other life problems such as Maths or engineering. We all know that a good musician (which most of us aspire to be) can make great music on any instrument. But we have the virus, the Musical Instrument Virus, MIV. Otherwise knows as Gear Acquiring Income Demise Syndrome, GAIDS.

hehehe Yes but I am trying to prevent him from spending a lot of money if there is no concrete reason to justify the extra expense.

I have a Manuel Raimundo that was less than 1/4 (yes 1/4) of the price of the guitar (Jose Ramirez) that I was gunning for because it's action, and sound compare very well with the said Ramirez FL2. I was very close to spending 4 times as much on something that would have brought no more joy than what I have now.

Bob-Dubery

zohn wrote There is nothing quite like that instrument that "speaks" to you, regardless of the price. Also, one has to acknowledge that the expensive ones will always produce returns should you wish to sell it and/or upgrade. They are usually - let's say - very "re sell-able". Pro musos are liable for tax rebates for their "tools of the trade" like in any other profession. It makes perfect sense why players like Eric Clapton or Steven Stills have so many valuable vintage guitars.

Well for a start they can afford them (or they get given them). Also any instrument those guys own goes up in value because they owned it. Clapton's "Blackie" sold way over the usual price for a 50s bitsocaster because it was his.

I hadn't thought of the tax angle. Are you sure about that? I don't see George Gruhn punting it as a selling point, and I can think of musicians who are well enough off to play that game but don't.

In steel string terms, I don't think all brands are as "re sell-able" as Martins though. - certainly in the States.

Fo shizzle. I can't figure it out. Lowdens, which are very high quality instruments from a low output company, seem to not be appreciating in value. Indeed 2nd hand Lowdens - when you can get them - usually represent a good buy in terms of instrument for your money. Perhaps the signature models will work better as investments. With Martin you need to either buy old or buy one of the limited editions. A common or garden D28 will appreciate, but not the way the limited editions will.

With the small volume builders there seems to be no rhyme or reason explaining how they will perform as investments. Kevin Ryan's instruments are doing well. Danny Ferrington's seem not to. I am not doubting the quality of his instruments, but they don't seem to get the cash registers ringing in the same way.

guitarboy2828

So, after all this talk and debate, I have decided that I do want to get a pickup put in my Yamaha, probably won't go overboard and buy the best of the best. But will fit a decent pickup in it. That way, I'll save up as someone suggested and possibly get a second backup/different tuning guitar with a pickup. But for now, I think it is definitely worth me keeping this one, just because I do love it.

Thanks guys, I think you saved me a good deal of money and time. ?

TomCat

Donovan Banks wrote
TomCat wrote whoever bought that one got a real gem....
This one Tom?

Yup....that looks familiar...LOL

Bob-Dubery

zohn wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
Fo shizzle. I can't figure it out. Lowdens, which are very high quality instruments from a low output company, seem to not be appreciating in value.
George Lowden is still alive

You noticed that too? ?

Kevin Ryan and Wayne Henderson are still alive and their guitars are appreciating nicely in value. Ditto Linda Manzer.

It maybe that Lowden's guitars don't quite fit the profile. They're plain, low-bling. Most of them don't even have a gloss finish.

guitarboy2828

X-rated Bob wrote
zohn wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
Fo shizzle. I can't figure it out. Lowdens, which are very high quality instruments from a low output company, seem to not be appreciating in value.
George Lowden is still alive
They're plain, low-bling.

No guitarist wants a second hand guitar without bling.. ?

singemonkey

Well put me down for a Lowden then (when I have cash). A low-output company making top-end guitars that hasn't appreciated much? That's a good investment just sitting there. Because ultimately the appreciation of all these top-end guitars is going to accelerate as the supply of tonewoods diminishes. If there's global economic growth, I'm guessing there will also be an increase in the numbers of new players wanting good guitars. Heck, even the thousands monthly joining the Indian and Chinese middle classes will mean a huge increase in the number of new guitar players who want good instruments.

I suspect all of these factors will ultimately combine to cause the less well known manufacturer's top-end guitars to shoot up in value. But you may have to hang on a while - 30 years or so. But that's ok too. If you get a bit of exercise, don't smoke, and don't eat too much red meat your projected lifespan is increasing by about 6 hours every day. ?

Bob-Dubery

singemonkey wrote Well put me down for a Lowden then (when I have cash). A low-output company making top-end guitars that hasn't appreciated much? That's a good investment just sitting there. Because ultimately the appreciation of all these top-end guitars is going to accelerate as the supply of tonewoods diminishes.

Absoloodely. Larrivee aren't performing well either - even the limited editions. But that surely can't last. I have three good quality acoustic guitars, and I'd countenance selling two of them (the Morgan is the one I'd hang on to for dear life) but the reality is that you if have fine, all wood acoustic guitars and can take a long term view then you should - they're only going to appreciate in the long run. If you don't want to play and don't have to sell them then stick them under the bed (just keep the humidifiers filled - or shrink wrap them).

So thanks SM. I think I'll take a 2nd mortgage and go buy a couple of Collings this weekend.

guitarboy2828

Soo... After much work and no time to go to guitar stores, I finally got the chance.. Spent around 2-3 hours today playing acoustics, and i played some great ones.. But, my findings were more confusing than anything.. ?

I went to coastals, first guitar i picked up was a Tanglewood and i LOVED the sound of it, was super amazed, expected it to be an 8-9K guitar.. It was R2600.. I was flabbergasted.. I NEARLY bought it, right then and there.. But i wanted to first find out what you guys thought of those guitars.. For that price, i've NEVER played a guitar like that.. Wow..

Then i played some ibanez's that were in the 7-10k range.. They were nice, but nothing amazing.. Good value for money, very nicely build and nice to play, but just not worth the extra over the tangle i thought.

THEN.. and this changed my life.. The guy bought me a Martin (they have one in stock).. It was a DC-1E.. I fell in love.. Big, bright sound, AMAZING playability, crisp tone, just awesome.. However, this was marked at 18k and i could get it for 14k. So quite a bit.. ☹

They didn't have any Tak's which I was hoping they would..

I then went to Music Ink (which have Yamaha's) and I played a couple of those, however, none of them came close to the martin, or even close to the tanglewood. There was one, but it was 10k and it was half decent in comparison to the Tanglewood. So wasn't hooked there..

If it wasn't for my trip to the USA in October, I'd be telling you how great my new tanglewood is. however, if you guys think it's a good guitar, i may still go and get it and save up for that martin! ?

Oh, one more thing.. I actually went into the store to try out the different pickups, because I had decided on getting a pickup put into my guitar. However, after playing the Tangle and Martin, i changed my mind about that. ? The fisherman and bband pickups were both great, very responsive and could really get a nice sound out of them. That was through an acoustic amp though, not sure how different that is to a PA system?

racman

My Morgan OM has an older B-Band system which works great into a PA ?

Bob-Dubery

guitarboy2828 wrote Soo... After much work and no time to go to guitar stores, I finally got the chance.. Spent around 2-3 hours today playing acoustics, and i played some great ones.. But, my findings were more confusing than anything.. ?

I went to coastals, first guitar i picked up was a Tanglewood and i LOVED the sound of it, was super amazed, expected it to be an 8-9K guitar.. It was R2600.. I was flabbergasted.. I NEARLY bought it, right then and there.. But i wanted to first find out what you guys thought of those guitars.. For that price, i've NEVER played a guitar like that.. Wow..

Tanglewoods can be great value for money. I find them to be a bit inconsistent, but this can be a good thing, because it means that if you play a few then you could find a really good one. Sounds like you did - or the guys in the store had played them all and knew which the good one was. Did it have electronics at that price?

THEN.. and this changed my life.. The guy bought me a Martin (they have one in stock).. It was a DC-1E.. I fell in love.. Big, bright sound, AMAZING playability, crisp tone, just awesome.. However, this was marked at 18k and i could get it for 14k. So quite a bit.. ☹

Now you're getting into the lower reaches of serious acoustic guitar territory. The DCs are Martin's budget line. You'll have noticed how unadorned that guitar was - and it seems you weren't put off by it. If you were in Jo'burg I'd tell you to try out the 3 series Larrivees which are the same level of trim but still have one piece necks, wood bindings are all solid wood and will cost a little less.

Did you get to try any Taylors? You should be able to get a Big Baby for a bit less than that Martin. I had one of those that I still regret selling (though it found a good home). They don't come with factory electronics, but you can get some good stuff fitted and probably still have change. Mine had Baggs kit fitted to it and it sounded pretty good plugged in or unplugged. A slightly smaller body than a regular dreadnought and very plainly appointed, but it sounded and played real good. You probably don't want to go heavier than 12s on one of those.

I mention string gauge because IMO unless you are planning to do a lot of fast runs and bending then heavier strings generally make for a bigger, richer sound on acoustics. I always liked my Morgan and used to put 12s on it. But I was doing lots of fingerstyle stuff and decided that the bottom end needed a little more punch so I went for a "bluegrass" set which has the bottom 3 strings from a medium set ("medium" in the acoustic world is 13) and the top 3 from a light set. Which was better but then, for my ears, a little unbalanced. So I went to 13s and boom! The sound just started pouring out.

OK... one man's tone is another man's toxin, but maybe you want to experiment with strings. Different compounds will give different tones as well. Phosphor bronze sound different than 80:20. However some compounds weigh more and thus exert more tension gauge for gauge. If you fit medium PBs then think of them as like medium and a quarter. Some makers or shops will put lightish strings on the guitars so that they're easier to play and so you go "I want that one". But they may be giving up some tone in doing so.

Ask if a setup is included in the price. This may be a bit cheeky with the Tanglewood, but the worst they can do is laugh, if you're buying a Martin then that should be part of the deal.

guitarboy2828

X-rated Bob wrote
guitarboy2828 wrote Soo... After much work and no time to go to guitar stores, I finally got the chance.. Spent around 2-3 hours today playing acoustics, and i played some great ones.. But, my findings were more confusing than anything.. ?

I went to coastals, first guitar i picked up was a Tanglewood and i LOVED the sound of it, was super amazed, expected it to be an 8-9K guitar.. It was R2600.. I was flabbergasted.. I NEARLY bought it, right then and there.. But i wanted to first find out what you guys thought of those guitars.. For that price, i've NEVER played a guitar like that.. Wow..
Tanglewoods can be great value for money. I find them to be a bit inconsistent, but this can be a good thing, because it means that if you play a few then you could find a really good one. Sounds like you did - or the guys in the store had played them all and knew which the good one was. Did it have electronics at that price?

It included electronics, indeed. It had a VERY basic fishman.. but actually sounded great, figured at that price i could get a decent DI box and use the eq on that to tweek my sound! ?

THEN.. and this changed my life.. The guy bought me a Martin (they have one in stock).. It was a DC-1E.. I fell in love.. Big, bright sound, AMAZING playability, crisp tone, just awesome.. However, this was marked at 18k and i could get it for 14k. So quite a bit.. ☹
Now you're getting into the lower reaches of serious acoustic guitar territory. The DCs are Martin's budget line. You'll have noticed how unadorned that guitar was - and it seems you weren't put off by it. If you were in Jo'burg I'd tell you to try out the 3 series Larrivees which are the same level of trim but still have one piece necks, wood bindings are all solid wood and will cost a little less.

I really wish I could try some Larry's, i'd hate to buy a martin only to find that there is a larry at the same price that blows me out the water. As to the unadorned guitar, i think that's awesome, just has a nice wood sound and i really do like the look of it. The Ibanez that i played was very well finished. It looked smart, but i quite like the simplicity of a wood guitar! ? I definitely do think though, after playing that martin that i'm going to wait a little longer and get a slightly more expensive guitar.. One in this sort of range. I may try and take a trip to Jo-burg when i have the money and just play some other guitars first. But that'll be in a couple months time.

Did you get to try any Taylors? You should be able to get a Big Baby for a bit less than that Martin. I had one of those that I still regret selling (though it found a good home). They don't come with factory electronics, but you can get some good stuff fitted and probably still have change. Mine had Baggs kit fitted to it and it sounded pretty good plugged in or unplugged. A slightly smaller body than a regular dreadnought and very plainly appointed, but it sounded and played real good. You probably don't want to go heavier than 12s on one of those.

Actually, i played 2 taylors a 110ce and a 210ce. Both were cheaper than the martin, the 210 was around 14k retail price i think. They had nothing on the martin IMO. Something the taylor lacked was attack. It was a very mellow guitar with a great sound, however, it just wasn't bright enough for me. It lacked that grit that i love in an acoustic. I was surprised at that actually, as I know taylors are big names. It could just be the ones I played. Or possibly just not what I'm wanting in a guitar.

I mention string gauge because IMO unless you are planning to do a lot of fast runs and bending then heavier strings generally make for a bigger, richer sound on acoustics. I always liked my Morgan and used to put 12s on it. But I was doing lots of fingerstyle stuff and decided that the bottom end needed a little more punch so I went for a "bluegrass" set which has the bottom 3 strings from a medium set ("medium" in the acoustic world is 13) and the top 3 from a light set. Which was better but then, for my ears, a little unbalanced. So I went to 13s and boom! The sound just started pouring out.

OK... one man's tone is another man's toxin, but maybe you want to experiment with strings. Different compounds will give different tones as well. Phosphor bronze sound different than 80:20. However some compounds weigh more and thus exert more tension gauge for gauge. If you fit medium PBs then think of them as like medium and a quarter. Some makers or shops will put lightish strings on the guitars so that they're easier to play and so you go "I want that one". But they may be giving up some tone in doing so.

Ask if a setup is included in the price. This may be a bit cheeky with the Tanglewood, but the worst they can do is laugh, if you're buying a Martin then that should be part of the deal.

Interesting that you mention string gauge, never thought to ask about that. hmm, my yamaha now has 12's on it and it plays well, i can even do a semi tone bend on it if i brave. But i agree, i really enjoy fat strings, they're bright and have a lot of body to them.

As to the setup, i think that is what I was most impressed about, I really don't know that I'd change anythin on the martin, set up was perfect. all the way down, no fretbuz, the action was amazing. (I'm not sure what else a set up does ?)

The tanglewood was pretty great to play too, may be worth a couple hundred to set up, but i would be quite content the way it was..

racman

X-rated Bob wrote
I mention string gauge because IMO unless you are planning to do a lot of fast runs and bending then heavier strings generally make for a bigger, richer sound on acoustics. I always liked my Morgan and used to put 12s on it. But I was doing lots of fingerstyle stuff and decided that the bottom end needed a little more punch so I went for a "bluegrass" set which has the bottom 3 strings from a medium set ("medium" in the acoustic world is 13) and the top 3 from a light set. Which was better but then, for my ears, a little unbalanced. So I went to 13s and boom! The sound just started pouring out.

@Bob, can one buy Bluegrass sets or does one have to make it up from individual string purchases (Always looking to improve the sound of my M ?)

Bob-Dubery

racman wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
I mention string gauge because IMO unless you are planning to do a lot of fast runs and bending then heavier strings generally make for a bigger, richer sound on acoustics. I always liked my Morgan and used to put 12s on it. But I was doing lots of fingerstyle stuff and decided that the bottom end needed a little more punch so I went for a "bluegrass" set which has the bottom 3 strings from a medium set ("medium" in the acoustic world is 13) and the top 3 from a light set. Which was better but then, for my ears, a little unbalanced. So I went to 13s and boom! The sound just started pouring out.

@Bob, can one buy Bluegrass sets or does one have to make it up from individual string purchases (Always looking to improve the sound of my M ?)

"bluegrass set" is a slang term. You can get them, but not necessarily by that name. I used to buy elixir sets that a 56 on 6th and a 12 on the first. Elixir mediums would go 56 to 13. So they might be called light/medium or something like that.

racman

Thx - will probably just go for 13's but then probably also then need to adjust the action as well ☹

guitarboy - my apologies for the small hijack ? ?

guitarboy2828

racman wrote Thx - will probably just go for 13's but then probably also then need to adjust the action as well ☹

guitarboy - my apologies for the small hijack ? ?

Racman, no worries, I'm pretty keen to get some new strings too! ?

Bob-Dubery

guitarboy2828 wrote I really wish I could try some Larry's, i'd hate to buy a martin only to find that there is a larry at the same price that blows me out the water. As to the unadorned guitar, i think that's awesome, just has a nice wood sound and i really do like the look of it. The Ibanez that i played was very well finished. It looked smart, but i quite like the simplicity of a wood guitar! ? I definitely do think though, after playing that martin that i'm going to wait a little longer and get a slightly more expensive guitar.. One in this sort of range. I may try and take a trip to Jo-burg when i have the money and just play some other guitars first. But that'll be in a couple months time.

And the cost of the trip will absorb what you might have saved. Assuming there are still Larries in stock, they're not a constant presence in the showrooms.

Actually, i played 2 taylors a 110ce and a 210ce. Both were cheaper than the martin, the 210 was around 14k retail price i think. They had nothing on the martin IMO. Something the taylor lacked was attack. It was a very mellow guitar with a great sound, however, it just wasn't bright enough for me. It lacked that grit that i love in an acoustic. I was surprised at that actually, as I know taylors are big names. It could just be the ones I played. Or possibly just not what I'm wanting in a guitar.

I'm not fond of Taylors on the whole. but the Big Baby that I had was pretty good. So I'd always recommend one of those to somebody looking for a decent acoustic.

Bob-Dubery

racman wrote Thx - will probably just go for 13's but then probably also then need to adjust the action as well ☹

I may not have been clear in my reply. You can get these medium/light sets, they just are not usually called "bluegrass sets". That's a slang term - the guy in the shop may know what it means but also may not.

I got an elixir set that fitted the description but it was called something other than "bluegrass". Just check the gauges. Elixir mediums go from 56 to 13. The set that I was using for a while went from 56 to 12 - so it had the bass strings of a medium set and the treble strings of a light set.

Bob-Dubery

X-rated Bob wrote I mention string gauge because IMO unless you are planning to do a lot of fast runs and bending then heavier strings generally make for a bigger, richer sound on acoustics. I always liked my Morgan and used to put 12s on it. But I was doing lots of fingerstyle stuff and decided that the bottom end needed a little more punch so I went for a "bluegrass" set which has the bottom 3 strings from a medium set ("medium" in the acoustic world is 13) and the top 3 from a light set. Which was better but then, for my ears, a little unbalanced. So I went to 13s and boom! The sound just started pouring out.

All this, of course, is contingent on the guitar being up to the job. As I said previously, I wouldn't put 13s on a Taylor Big Baby, and I was surprised to find out that Lowden build their guitars to take 12s. However I know (because I checked with the factory) that Morgans will take 13s with no problems, and whilst Larries ship with 12s they take 13s OK.

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