racman wrote: The build will take between 6-12 months and will then hopefully result in a two acoustic guitar scenario (acoustic wise) with the Takamine "workhorse" and the custom build. (although this is subject to change at short norice sop I;m not committing to only two guitars ! ?)

Well then I want first dibs on your Morgan! ?

I thought that it may be of interest to some to start a thread from concept discussions excerpts to wood selections and discussions to the final completed build pics with sound samples etc. The commisioned luthier has committed to send regular build progress pics during the build process which I will post. We are currently in the process of wood selection and I have been sent some pics of available tonewoods for back and sides for selection purposes. Others will be sent soon for final consideration.

I will post my initial requirement overview sent to a shortlist of 10 luthiers and include their websites details, my selection process as well as the reasons for my selection to start with.

Should be interesting. Not to mention drool-inducing and green-making.

Let me answer a few potential questions at the outset before they arise:

1) Do I NEED a new or custom build guitar of any sort? NO
2) Do my playing capabilities warrant this build? NO
3) Am I good enough to even get the best out of a R1000 guitar? NO
4) Have I looked at local Lutheirs? YES (not all but some)
5) Will my Morgan eventually be for sale? Possibly and BOB has first option if so ?
6) Will my Martin eventually be for sale? Possibly
7) Is this build definitely on? Yes, Yes, Yes ! (The required deposit has been paid and the build slot booked and allocated)

Yum!

Congrats on making the best decision you can make in life! ?

I have my sites on a certain one too... 3 year plan

Please tell who is building it for you? I cant wait to see this one...

One more question? When it gets here, could I come visit? ?

Steady now Brent, I am going to get to the comissioned luthier in a few days time (although he has just sent me an picture of two awesome pieces of wood to choose from for the body. A highly figured piece of Wild Grain Indian Rosewood and a very nicely figured piece of curly sapele.)

Although I am a little afraid of the reply, I am waiting for the pics and pricing of his prized piece of "The Tree" Mahogany - damn, I wish I didn't have a limited budget but here's hoping.... ?

Who knows, when the build is finished it may even feature in one of the later x-stocks but that is a long time coming.

racman wrote: Steady now Brent, I am going to get to the comissioned luthier in a few days time (although he has just sent me an picture of two awesome pices of wood to choose from for the body. A highly figured piece of Wild Grain Indian Rosewood and a very nicely figured piece of curly sapele.)

There are sonic as well as visual implications for this choice. All else being equal, guitars with rosewood and sapele tonewood will not sound the same.

mmmmmm If its a luthier with a piece of 'the tree'

Breedlove? R Taylor? Poling? Ken Miller? Kevin Ryan? McCollum? This thread just keeps getting better...

Racman you sir are a legend ?

X-rated Bob wrote:

racman wrote: Steady now Brent, I am going to get to the comissioned luthier in a few days time (although he has just sent me an picture of two awesome pices of wood to choose from for the body. A highly figured piece of Wild Grain Indian Rosewood and a very nicely figured piece of curly sapele.)

There are sonic as well as visual implications for this choice. All else being equal, guitars with rosewood and sapele tonewood will not sound the same.

Agreed Bob, but I currently have three rosewood type guitars which is why I am considering Sapele or Mahogany as well. It seems to be current consensus amongst the luthiers contacted that while the back and sides have a marked effect on the sound, the Soundboard and Bracing etc have an even larger effect. I am considering all options at present though, with their tonal impacts as well.

@Brent - while it is not one of those mentioned (which are waaaaaaaaaay outside my price range, the commisioned luthier is a friend of Mr Ryan I believe ?)

racman wrote:

X-rated Bob wrote:

racman wrote: Steady now Brent, I am going to get to the comissioned luthier in a few days time (although he has just sent me an picture of two awesome pices of wood to choose from for the body. A highly figured piece of Wild Grain Indian Rosewood and a very nicely figured piece of curly sapele.)

There are sonic as well as visual implications for this choice. All else being equal, guitars with rosewood and sapele tonewood will not sound the same.

Agreed Bob, but I currently have three rosewood type guitars which is why I am considering Sapele or Mahogany as well. It seems to be current consensus amongst the luthiers contacted that while the back and sides have a marked effect on the sound, the Soundboard and Bracing etc have an even larger effect. I am considering all options at present though, with their tonal impacts as well.

Oh sure. Tonewood is not the only thing colouring the sound, but colour the sound it does. This is what you get for missing out on X-Stock, we had 3 Larrivees there with the same construction but different wood combinations. I'd agree that shape and bracing may be even more influential, but tonewood does change things.

Sapele is not to be sneered at. Some good builders are using it now.

Does Sapele sound similar to Mahogany Bob?

I then made my final decision on the commissioned Luthier based on the following:

a) Categorising Luthiers according to budget requirements. Having a predetermined budget is essential and one learns rather quickly that there are some excellent lower priced Luthiers.
b) Response and interaction on the above
c) Reputation evident from forums, dealers, reviews etc etc (Lots of e-mails and searching)
(where possible, personal contact with owners of said luthers guitars via forums to discuss the build process, their satsifaction with the build and final product etc)
d) Reviewing galleries on the Luthiers websites – does what they consider their best or signature work match up with my requirements?
e) Available Build slots and build time. I only short listed Luthiers who personally build each instrument which means that the average build time ranges between 6-12 months depending on the complexity of build and unforeseen circumstances.

The following Luthiers were on my shortlist:

1) Paul Burner – http://www.burnerguitars.com/ ( A part time father and son luthier team who are just starting out but are already making a name for themselves.Their prices will definitely rise over the next few years as they aim to eventually go full time)
2) Colby Horton - http://www.hortonguitars.com/ (yet to reply to any e-mail :^( )
3) Stephen Kinnaird - http://www.stephenkinnaird.com/luthier.html
4) Tom Doerr - http://www.doerrguitars.com/home.html (Tom has just completed development of a new range of innovative processes etc which sadly placed his guitars out of my budget)
5) Kent Chasson - http://www.chassonguitars.com/ (One of the front runners for the build as he is just so passionate about tone. Attended intensive Ervin Somogyi workshop on wood and tone responsiveness. Check out Ervin’s video etc on his site as well: http://www.esomogyi.com/guitars.html )
6) John Mayes - http://mayesguitars.com/ (Great traditional style builds and has a fan in Steven Curtis Chapman who plays a few of his instruments. Currently busy with a SCC signature model as well)
7) Peter Marreiros- http://www.cornerstoneguitar.com/Home.html (Heavily influenced by his personal friend Kevin Ryan but also has several new aspects to his design as well and is a lot cheaper than Ryan. Although that won’t be for long in my opinion)
8) John Osthoff - http://www.osthoffguitars.com/about.htm
9) David Taylor - http://www.dtguitars.com/

racman wrote: Does Sapele sound similar to Mahogany Bob?

It's used as an alternative to Mahogany. It has a similar colour but not the same grain - it's a little stripier. I'm not saying better or worse looking, just different.

Tonally it's in the mahogany ballpark.

racman wrote:
The following Luthiers were on my shortlist:

1) Paul Burner – http://www.burnerguitars.com/ ( A part time father and son luthier team who are just starting out but are already making a name for themselves.Their prices will definitely rise over the next few years as they aim to eventually go full time)
2) Colby Horton - http://www.hortonguitars.com/ (yet to reply to any e-mail :^( )
3) Stephen Kinnaird - http://www.stephenkinnaird.com/luthier.html
4) Tom Doerr - http://www.doerrguitars.com/home.html (Tom has just completed development of a new range of innovative processes etc which sadly placed his guitars out of my budget)
5) Kent Chasson - http://www.chassonguitars.com/ (One of the front runners for the build as he is just so passionate about tone. Attended intensive Ervin Somogyi workshop on wood and tone responsiveness. Check out Ervin’s video etc on his site as well: http://www.esomogyi.com/guitars.html )
6) John Mayes - http://mayesguitars.com/ (Great traditional style builds and has a fan in Steven Curtis Chapman who plays a few of his instruments. Currently busy with a SCC signature model as well)
7) Peter Marreiros- http://www.cornerstoneguitar.com/Home.html (Heavily influenced by his personal friend Kevin Ryan but also has several new aspects to his design as well and is a lot cheaper than Ryan. Although that won’t be for long in my opinion)
8) John Osthoff - http://www.osthoffguitars.com/about.htm
9) David Taylor - http://www.dtguitars.com/

Are they all in North America? Did you consider any British builders when searching?

the problem which i have issues with with any luthier build.when ordered prioir to the build..... is what will it actually sound like ??????

cos to me tone is more important than the name of the builder or the look of the wood............ and i have had this chat with several local and international luthiers ...cos i too been in the market for months if not last year and a bit for a luthier built classical guitar for myself...and every luthier will tell me to my face that they can't say listen to a guitar i bring em and then recreate that tone....or garentee that a guitar will have a particular tone..... they can do a identical build and it will sound similar but never the same and to me thats the archilles heel of a custom build....

at moment(by end of month) i'm getting a luthier built guitar from local luthier .. but opted for buying a finished guitar ....... but even this excercise proves my point cos the same luthier had a a finished classical which i originally invited to see, tessa ziegler endorses it , james grace has tried it so it's up there as a top class instrument and made with all the correct woods that should give awesome tone. and be the perfect classical for me ......... yet it's way too bright for my ears and taste ........so not saying it's a bad guitar cos it sure aint just it has not got the tone i like as a performer

i prefered the more traditional tone this luthier created from another one he never even had on display , which he brought out from the workshop ........ and i loved it .it had the tone i wanted............ and we just making an adjustment to action then i'm buying it .......

so thats what scares me from buying "blind" from a luthier ............ as an investment i can see no prob, but as a performing guitar, i do see a huge gamble in hoping it will sound exactly how you want it to........ cos lets be honest every performer hears the tiniest nuances in our guitars and loves or hates them for that .......

anyway just something to bear in mind ........ and if i was you racman i'd fly to states for a month and visit all the luthiers ....... try their guitars they have in stock and buy the one you like best ........ but thats just me......... i not a gambler....... and also can only afford one custom guitar .... so for me theres no room what so ever for error or misjudgement

but hell yes i'm excited for you and love to hear more and see and most importantly hear what you get

however i would be really interested to hear how you from your perspective personally deal with the "gamble' of a blind build from a luthier ....i know the look will be precisely what you want/order but what do you think or how do you deal with regards to the finished tone........ cos no two acoustic guitars even from same luthier with same specs sound identical, thats a fact not myth ...so keen to hear your take on that

peace and light
keira

zohn wrote:

Keira WitherKay wrote:
i prefered the more traditional tone this luthier created from another one he never even had on display , which he brought out from the workshop ........ and i loved it .it had the tone i wanted............ and we just making an adjustment to action then i'm buying it .......

so thats what scares me from buying "blind" from a luthier ............

The guy that builds mine didn't require a deposit. He insists that I first play the guitar and decide whether I want to buy it or not.

wow that awesome i never found anyone willing to build to my specs who never insisted on me paying a deposit and of course a commitment to buy the final product regardless how it sounded, all agreed to fine tune the feel ect but never what you just suggested...thats quite a belief in their ability to recreate the tone other people want ......... who is the luthier ? cos with that attitude damn he should be tons of orders....... and should be promoted . cos truly that fear of ordering a guitar spending a wack of cash and not liking the end products tone has made till now turn down a few possible builds..... so please share .......


and the guitars you bought blind...did you suggest a tone to the luthier that you wanted and they gave it to you or did they just build to your wood specs and the tone you get you were happy with .... ........ cos for players like me i want a specific tone... not just a specific build .... and yes most reputable builders will make awesome professional level instruments but that is a wide tonal palate that will fall in the range of "excellent" tone but my taste is quite specific

hey Zohn , i just visited his website, lovely looking instruments ........... and i saw your name in the client list ........ ? i will try and make an appointment to see him sometime and hear his work...... but i prob will buy this other guitar 1st as i do love the tone ...... but keen to hear Han's guitars and if they fall into my taste of not ........ thanks for the post.

oh and @zohn did you see the 2nd part of the question i posed you re the blind buys .... i added it i think after you replied to 1st question.......... hans van der berg 's website is now a favourite on my pc and hope to hear his guitars soon .......

zohn wrote: Bob Taylor 's experience suggests that Sapele's frequency range extends further both ways of the low and high frequency spectrum than that of South American (Tropical) Mahogany (Hog) as demonstrated in this visual chart. In practical terms it means that it is closer to the frequency range of Rosewood than Hog. It is also heavier (denser) than Hog. It is together with Ausie/Tasmanian Black wood probably the most underrated tone wood in my opinion. It is characterized by its even ribbon-like striping that extends over the whole length of the body as opposed to Hog's pattern that tends to "break up".



Gallagher guitars have an affection for using Sapele and Indian Rosewood as their "industry standard". The Doc Watson model has Sapele B&S. http://www.gallagherguitar.com/docwatson.html

This graph more or less corresponds with what Sean, Fingerpicker and I figured out at the X-Stock tonewood shoot out. Rosewood has more bottom end than hog, but also that scoop in the mids. Hog, OTOH, is strong in the mids. Koa we perceived as more like hog than rosewood but with stronger tops.

Jikkel! We are not that dof, not that cloth-eared and were not that vrot.

The guy that builds mine didn't require a deposit. He insists that I first play the guitar and decide whether I want to buy it or not.

That's very unusual. That said, I don't really have a problem with the builder wanting some money up front. After all he has to buy the materials up front. Also once you've taken a deposit from people you know that they're probably going to collect the guitar after you've made it.

The question of what it's going to sound like is interesting. A lot of makers these days have their own philosophy about design and tone. This is a good thing IMO - if everybody is making guitars that sound like Martins then you don't really have a choice. I like that Taylor doesn't sound like Larrivee, Larrivee doesn't sound like Martin etc etc and then you have all the smaller and custom builders as well. This is a golden age for acoustic guitarists.

What this does mean, however, is that when you buy from a luthier you buy their philosophy as well. They can color things somewhat with changes to the bracing and with selection of woods, but a Lowden ain't going to sound like a Martin and that's that.

I think there's two ways to go about it.

1) Buy the guitar based on the luthier's reputation and explore the sound of the guitar that you eventually get and see where that takes you and what it gives you.
2) Buy from a luthier because you know his instruments and want his sound.

For me buying an Ohlson or a Manzer or a Benjamin would be an example of (1). Buying a Lowden or a Fylde would be an example of (2) - I have played those instruments and have an idea of what I'm likely to be getting.

zohn wrote: I'm not so sure about James Olson and your category 1) - his signature sound was what got James Taylor, Phil Keaggy, Justin Hayward and a host others interested - and his waiting list pretty much confirms that his clients want what he offers...

I mean no disrespect to Olson and I don't imagine that his guitars are other than excellent, but I have never actually seen one so I'd know I was buying something very, very good but I wouldn't know specifically what to expect. OTOH if I bought a Lowden I'd have a very good idea of what to expect. Both would be very fine instruments of course.

Keira WitherKay wrote:
however i would be really interested to hear how you from your perspective personally deal with the "gamble' of a blind build from a luthier ....i know the look will be precisely what you want/order but what do you think or how do you deal with regards to the finished tone........ cos no two acoustic guitars even from same luthier with same specs sound identical, thats a fact not myth ...so keen to hear your take on that

peace and light
keira

I took that into consideration and yes you are correct - it is a gamble. I am planning the trip to visit family and to collect when it is complete. The Luthier also has a full 7 day return policy (minus shipping costs) if I am not satisfied with the completed instrument so while it is not exactly the ideal situation to wait for 12months and then have the risk of dissatisfaction, the aforementioned family trip plans and return policy minimise the financial risk somewhat.

Again I totally agree that one is never guaranteed of the tone. even of two identical shape and wood combinations. Keira, even though I am not a professional musician and an absolutely terrible player (I still need to contact you about those lessons so I can do justice to this dream), I nevertheless do "perform" on occasion and am absolutely pedantic about tone. One of the reasons That I decided against a custom Collings, Santa Cruz, Dana Bourgeois is that I wanted to deal with a smallish operation luthier who personally made only about 10-20 guitars a year (if that) and who, through many, many discussions had an absolute understanding of my tone requirements. But hey, life is a gamble as well.

I must also say that there are some excellent local luthiers and I am very eager to see Zohn's completed build as well.

I will post a few more choices of other woods during the course of the weekend and reveal the name of the commissioned Luthier. Of course for the mensa's (Ek het alteid gedink ons is almal "mensa" ?), I have already left a clue or two and am surprised no one has picked it up yet ?

The piece of Quilted Sapele that I'm thinking about: