What's the REAL difference, other than hype?

rich365 · 2010-03-20T11:22:28+00:00

I've been following the forum for a long time but only joined recently so this is my first posting. I have had guitars over the years with all kinds of pickups including Dimarzio, Seymour Duncan and EMG. I have liked and disliked some for various reasons and have also been enticed to buy new ones when a famous flavor of the month guitarist endorced a certain brand or model, or when pickups are specifically created for a famous player, i.e. the Fender Jeff Beck set (which I find really dull and unspectacular) or the Fender EVH set (same story) Recently a friend came over to watch a Super 12 game and we always jam a bit afterward. Pete's definitely a cheap skate (he won't mind me saying that and is kinda proud of it) when it comes to guitars and was bragging about a set of pickups called Tonerider that he got for a steal from a local online store. I laughed it off at first but I was really surprised at how good they actually sounded. The vintage Dimarzios in my Strat didn't sound half as good. So here's my question: Can someone tell me how it is possible that a Tonerider pickup that costs R400.00 can sound clearer and more punchy than my R1350.00 Dimarzio pickup. Are we all being misled though marketing? Is it because it is generally perceived that anything from the USA is "that much better" ? Is it because the well known brands have gradually increased their prices over the years although the product basically remained the same? Is it because manufacturing is much cheaper in the East? Is it communism? Is it capitalism? Why? I'd like to get your expert advice and opinions about this. Thanks Richard Taylor Midrand

telefan100

Arjun Menon wrote
You may have a good point there Telefan, but i think the destroyer was only used on "You really got me", "Jamie's Cryin" & "Atomic punk"
The frankenstrat happened to his main guitar from 74 to around 83, and the brown sound was based on this guitar's sonic properties.
Also, when EVH (with funding from CBS/Fender) built the new wolfgang, they didn't use Fender pups, they custom wound 'em.
Maybe i'm wrong, maybe i'm not.

The fact is that he used an Ibanez, but who really knows exactly which songs on VH1 it was used on. He did mention in a Guitarworld mag once that it was basically used on everything that didn't require a divebomb, yet I'm sure not even Eddie will remember all the details. As for the 50 to 60 pickup prototypes, I am convinced that he would have gotten a killer tone with any one of a dozen pickups that is readily available.

So the point really is that it is the player's fingers and talent that generates the sound, and NOT a 200$ pickup, which is what this thread was originally about, if I'm not mistaken. ?

Jack-Flash-Jr

The key to the Frankenstrat is the humbucker at bridge - fat strat all the way baby ?
As for the ibby, it was this model methinks:

telefan100

Jack Flash Jr wrote The key to the Frankenstrat is the humbucker at bridge - fat strat all the way baby ?
As for the ibby, it was this model methinks:

Indeed! That's the model. Eddie removed a lot of the wood at the back with a drilling machine. It probably cracked, that's why he put those cable tighteners on the back - who knows? ? He also took the cover off the neck humbucker, stuck a Dimarzio in the bridge and repainted the thing. Fun!

This is what it ended up like: http://www.vhnd.com/2010/02/24/van-halen-vh1/

arjunmenon

telefan100 wrote So the point really is that it is the player's fingers and talent that generates the sound, and NOT a 200$ pickup, which is what this thread was originally about, if I'm not mistaken. ?

You, sir, have nailed it! ?

[deleted]

The difference is in the ear of the beholder...
I have to agree the difference might not be substantial from a tonerider to a $200 hand wound pickup

I have a set of Bareknuckles Mother Milk single coils in my strat... and trust me... They are better than most... (AND MORE THAN $200)
And I would do it again... and again... and if I got another strat, I would put another set of Bareknuckles in... They are that good!

Why?
Because I can.... ?

It's not 'hype' anyway. :?

Hype is a Jonnie Walker Blue... Cause a 12 year Glenmorangie tastes better and is 1/5 of the cost...
Hype is marketing...

A dedicated following of customers who demand these "hand wound" pickups, must surely know what they want and are happy with the results... thats why these custom winders exist!

MikeM

Playing is the cake, gear is the icing. ?

AlanRatcliffe

telefan100 wrote Errr, excuse me sir, but Eddie used an Ibanez Korina wood Destroyer with a stock Ibanez in the neck and Dimarzio in the bridge ALL OVER the first album! Most rhythm tracks and solo's that doesn't have a divebomb were recorded on this guitar!

I didn't know that! I stand corrected. And yes, Eddie has stayed pretty consistent as he's changed guitars through the years, which goes to show that ultimately it's the player.

On the other side, Eddie himself seems to be very particular about the specific tone and feel of his instruments when someone is making him one. I've always found that amusing as when he modifies them himself he's the very epitome of a hack with a drill, chisel and hammer.

Keira-WitherKay

i must say i am one of the people that DON'T believe in Logo's and labels as being essential, and i am enough of a hippie to be convinced that corporate biz just corrupts our impression on what we should have or need........

and YES i believe there is a standard your gear must achieve to be used professionally ... ,

but everything beyond that is simply hype and marketing, and lets be honest the elitistism that some musicians seem to have about their gear does excist .......

but the reality is you will as a pro muso anywhere in the world get the same gigs with a 10 K tokai les paul (loverock) as you would with a Gibson les paul at 3 to 4 times the price ... so yeah the hype is in the name..and i can understand to some that name is neccessary........

however if one is a collector thats different ......

but i'm more inclined to listen to the tone of the instrument or pup or gear than worry whats on the headstock........ so if the tonerider sounds good in your guitar why bother with anything else....... and in all reality who really cares what pups are in your guitar if it sounds cool ....... and gives you the tone you want .........

so yes quality to a certain "acceptable" level is required but advertising hype and the music press and even forums like this...are responsible for spreading GAS ... that old consumer strategy of "keeping up or preferably ahead of the jone's "

rich365

Lots of opinions! Lots to Consider! Lots to think about!

So, the general consensus is that most of it is hype (or advertising & marketing).
People also perceive that some products from the US are better, just because they've been around a long time and the trust factor associated with these products justifies the higher price, but not necessarily makes them any better.
Tonerider Pickups are as good if not better than many more well-known brands.
It is definitely in your fingers, personality, your head, how much you practice and how talented you are.
99 out of 100 players will not be able to hear that minute difference between a R400.00 Tonerider and a well-know R1250.00 US brand or a $250 custom wound pickup (hand-wind)

What else?

Rich

MikeM

Most handwounds I'd buy go for about $60-130 per pup. Lollar charges $150. I've bought a strat set for $130.

rich365

MikeM wrote Most handwounds I'd buy go for about $60-130 per pup. Lollar charges $150. I've bought a strat set for $130.

Point taken MikeM! I was referring more to the other post here about bareknuckle pickups and also some Van Halen Pickups that went for something like $250.

Jack-Flash-Jr

Alan Ratcliffe wrote I've always found that amusing as when he modifies them himself he's the very epitome of a hack with a drill, chisel and hammer.

You've just described me :-[ sans Eddie's flying fingers...

Bob-Dubery

rich365 wrote

It is definitely in your fingers, personality, your head, how much you practice and how talented you are.

99 out of 100 players will not be able to hear that minute difference between a R400.00 Tonerider and a well-know R1250.00 US brand or a $250 custom wound pickup (hand-wind)

But remember that a lot of top players are very particular about all aspects of their kit. I grant that your imagination and talent and personality has a lot to do with it, but why are so many guys picky about their kit?

I see three possibilities (not exclusive)
1) It does make a difference
2) They are being paid to endorse a specific brand
3) They are as crazy as the rest of us.

Floydoid

I've read this post with great interest and since there's been some posts about Eddie van Halen I feel compelled to share some info.

I bought a set of Tonerider pickups earlier this year for an HH configuration. Since I can never make up my mind what I want I decided not long afterward to return to an HSS config. I put the Tonerider Alnico 4 bridge pickup in the bridge position of the guitar (previously in the neck with a generator bridge in the bridge), together with pure vintage single coils in the middle and neck and I gotta tell you - WOW! I've been searching for that elusive EVH sound for a long time and this pickup, together with my Sansamp GT2 through my Marshall is a dead ringer for early classic Van Halen tone. I think its the alnico 4 magnet with the medium wind that does it.

Just try it. Use the Classic gain channel on a Marshall DSL100, put both volumes on 4, keep EQ at 12 o'clock, activate the crunch button, reverb on 2, step on the Sansamp GT2 and go! (Urgh, I forgot, not everyone has an Alnico 4........... or a Sansamp.........or a Marshall ??? )

Let there be Rock!

rich365

Floydoid wrote I put the Tonerider Alnico 4 bridge pickup in the bridge position of the guitar (previously in the neck with a generator bridge in the bridge), together with pure vintage single coils in the middle and neck and I gotta tell you - WOW! I've been searching for that elusive EVH sound for a long time and this pickup, together with my Sansamp GT2 through my Marshall is a dead ringer for early classic Van Halen tone. I think its the alnico 4 magnet with the medium wind that does it.

Just try it. Use the Classic gain channel on a Marshall DSL100, put both volumes on 4, keep EQ at 12 o'clock, activate the crunch button, reverb on 2, step on the Sansamp GT2 and go!

Floydoid - This sounds like fun! May I ask you to be more specific with the GT2 settings. I have a Peavey 5150 and I happen to have a GT2 in a box in the garage.

Rich

Floydoid

rich365 wrote
Floydoid wrote I put the Tonerider Alnico 4 bridge pickup in the bridge position of the guitar (previously in the neck with a generator bridge in the bridge), together with pure vintage single coils in the middle and neck and I gotta tell you - WOW! I've been searching for that elusive EVH sound for a long time and this pickup, together with my Sansamp GT2 through my Marshall is a dead ringer for early classic Van Halen tone. I think its the alnico 4 magnet with the medium wind that does it.

Just try it. Use the Classic gain channel on a Marshall DSL100, put both volumes on 4, keep EQ at 12 o'clock, activate the crunch button, reverb on 2, step on the Sansamp GT2 and go!
Floydoid - This sounds like fun! May I ask you to be more specific with the GT2 settings. I have a Peavey 5150 and I happen to have a GT2 in a box in the garage.

Hi Rich, here's the settings on my GT2. (I also use a power supply for it)

Mic - Center
Mod - High Gain
Amp - California
Level - 12o'clock
High - 11 o'clock
Low - 10 o'clock
Drive - 1 o'clock

Take note that I use the Tonerider Alnico 4 in the bridge position of my frankie. That's made a big difference for this particular sound.

On your 5150 amp I think you should have the rhythm channel and the pre- and post- gains roughly the same with the "crunch" button pushed in, so without the GT2 engaged you should be able to roll off the volume off the guitar for a clean sound.

Panama! :?

[deleted]

Floydoid wrote
Panama! :?

Ha! (A man, a plan, a canal: panama - I dig that palindrome stukkend...)

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