Is 380 Euro a good price? Just saw a cream/gold on black one brand spanking new in a shop. Nicely set up, shame on me for not cutting my nails. Would have liked to have taken it for a bit of a test drive but little time anyway. Didn't know they were this price range ???
Nice price for a Love Rock?
Does seem low. Which model and what year?
Didn't look, now I wish I did... They don't open on Sundays :'(
Things to look for:
Truss-rod cover: If it has 3 screws it's a made-in-china Tokai. While many people say these are very decent guitars and excellent competition for Epiphones, they are not in the same league as a made-in-Japan Tokai. 380 is about a reasonable price for one of these.
If it has two screws, it's made in Japan. Buy it and scamper away laughing. The lowest priced MIJ Tokai's would probably start at about 700 Euro's new - and that would be a very good price. If it's the MIJ black Les Paul Custom type, then I think about 800 Euros would be a bargain.
Here's the chinese made ALC50 that also comes in black so I'm thinking it might be the one:
Specs here: http://www1.odn.ne.jp/tokaigakki/products/traditional/alc50.html
Here's the MIJ LC98S:
This one's a Gibson killer. Specs here: http://www1.odn.ne.jp/tokaigakki/products/vintage/lc98s.html
Note the truss rod cover screws on the two models.
Lance's (TokaiSA) first batch to SA were exclusively MIJ Tokais - so that's what you've seen on the forum so far. But I think he's now got some MIC ES335 type models (ES60 it's called) that I believe he's going to sell exclusively through his site, along with the ultra high quality MIJ ES335 types that he'll make available in the stores.
I'm planning on writing an article for the forum detailing the most important stuff I've learned about these guitars from patient internet time-wastage 8)
But I guess, firstly, is it an LP Custom type, an LP Standard type, or something else entirely? That'll be a good start in identifying it.
Truss-rod cover: If it has 3 screws it's a made-in-china Tokai. While many people say these are very decent guitars and excellent competition for Epiphones, they are not in the same league as a made-in-Japan Tokai. 380 is about a reasonable price for one of these.
If it has two screws, it's made in Japan. Buy it and scamper away laughing. The lowest priced MIJ Tokai's would probably start at about 700 Euro's new - and that would be a very good price. If it's the MIJ black Les Paul Custom type, then I think about 800 Euros would be a bargain.
Here's the chinese made ALC50 that also comes in black so I'm thinking it might be the one:
Specs here: http://www1.odn.ne.jp/tokaigakki/products/traditional/alc50.html
Here's the MIJ LC98S:
This one's a Gibson killer. Specs here: http://www1.odn.ne.jp/tokaigakki/products/vintage/lc98s.html
Note the truss rod cover screws on the two models.
Lance's (TokaiSA) first batch to SA were exclusively MIJ Tokais - so that's what you've seen on the forum so far. But I think he's now got some MIC ES335 type models (ES60 it's called) that I believe he's going to sell exclusively through his site, along with the ultra high quality MIJ ES335 types that he'll make available in the stores.
I'm planning on writing an article for the forum detailing the most important stuff I've learned about these guitars from patient internet time-wastage 8)
But I guess, firstly, is it an LP Custom type, an LP Standard type, or something else entirely? That'll be a good start in identifying it.
In South Africa?Gearhead wrote: Is 380 Euro a good price? Just saw a cream/gold on black one brand spanking new in a shop. Nicely set up, shame on me for not cutting my nails. Would have liked to have taken it for a bit of a test drive but little time anyway. Didn't know they were this price range ???
If you're in the UK, then check the headstock, I don't think it will look like the headstocks in the photos singe posted....it will be the specially 'modified' "UK" headstock, not like the guitars available in SAfrica.
http://www.tokaiguitars.co.za/cat.htmlsingemonkey wrote: Things to look for:
Truss-rod cover: If it has 3 screws it's a made-in-china Tokai. While many people say these are very decent guitars and excellent competition for Epiphones, they are not in the same league as a made-in-Japan Tokai. 380 is about a reasonable price for one of these.
If it has two screws, it's made in Japan. Buy it and scamper away laughing. The lowest priced MIJ Tokai's would probably start at about 700 Euro's new - and that would be a very good price. If it's the MIJ black Les Paul Custom type, then I think about 800 Euros would be a bargain.
Here's the chinese made ALC50 that also comes in black so I'm thinking it might be the one:
Specs here: http://www1.odn.ne.jp/tokaigakki/products/traditional/alc50.html
Here's the MIJ LC98S:
This one's a Gibson killer. Specs here: http://www1.odn.ne.jp/tokaigakki/products/vintage/lc98s.html
Note the truss rod cover screws on the two models.
Lance's (TokaiSA) first batch to SA were exclusively MIJ Tokais - so that's what you've seen on the forum so far. But I think he's now got some MIC ES335 type models (ES60 it's called) that I believe he's going to sell exclusively through his site, along with the ultra high quality MIJ ES335 types that he'll make available in the stores.
I'm planning on writing an article for the forum detailing the most important stuff I've learned about these guitars from patient internet time-wastage 8)
But I guess, firstly, is it an LP Custom type, an LP Standard type, or something else entirely? That'll be a good start in identifying it.
Unfortunately no models, including Made in China models, are available to buy online.
Cool. Correction noted. ?
If people are overseas and see a Tokai going "cheap" in the stores, it's essential that they realise that Tokai makes almost every model in a number of different configurations for different tastes and pockets. A Love Rock is not a Love Rock is not a Love Rock.
The Tokai LS570 will cost you north of R40,000. Why? Solid Honduras Mahogany back and neck, 4A grade solid flamed maple top, boutique pickups, Jacaranda fretboard, bumblebee caps, etc..
The Tokai ALS48, on the other hand, would cost about 4 or 5 grand, is made in China, has a maple neck, a basswood top and body and top with a sycamore veneer, and the pickups aren't too hot. So while this guitar is stiff competition for an Epiphone LP, it's not quite the same as the LS570 - which is competing with a hand-made custom '59 sunburst replica.
ALS48:
There's almost every configuration you can think of between the ALS48 and the LS570: 2 piece backs vs. 1 piece backs, solid plain tops vs. veneer flame tops vs. solid flame tops, standard vs. vintage-style hardware, different caps, pots, switches.
All MIJ Love Rock, Les Paul Standard type guitars, though, offer a solid, non weight relieved, non-chambered, mahogany body - 1 or 2 pieces, or special bodies - and neck, with a solid maple top - 2 vs. 3 pieces, with or without veneer. This means that if you put the same hardware on them, there's little difference in the tone. And all pass through the same meticulous quality control. So once you're going MIJ, the higher spec models are for the glam factor and to save yourself some modding.
If people are overseas and see a Tokai going "cheap" in the stores, it's essential that they realise that Tokai makes almost every model in a number of different configurations for different tastes and pockets. A Love Rock is not a Love Rock is not a Love Rock.
The Tokai LS570 will cost you north of R40,000. Why? Solid Honduras Mahogany back and neck, 4A grade solid flamed maple top, boutique pickups, Jacaranda fretboard, bumblebee caps, etc..
The Tokai ALS48, on the other hand, would cost about 4 or 5 grand, is made in China, has a maple neck, a basswood top and body and top with a sycamore veneer, and the pickups aren't too hot. So while this guitar is stiff competition for an Epiphone LP, it's not quite the same as the LS570 - which is competing with a hand-made custom '59 sunburst replica.
ALS48:
There's almost every configuration you can think of between the ALS48 and the LS570: 2 piece backs vs. 1 piece backs, solid plain tops vs. veneer flame tops vs. solid flame tops, standard vs. vintage-style hardware, different caps, pots, switches.
All MIJ Love Rock, Les Paul Standard type guitars, though, offer a solid, non weight relieved, non-chambered, mahogany body - 1 or 2 pieces, or special bodies - and neck, with a solid maple top - 2 vs. 3 pieces, with or without veneer. This means that if you put the same hardware on them, there's little difference in the tone. And all pass through the same meticulous quality control. So once you're going MIJ, the higher spec models are for the glam factor and to save yourself some modding.
As far as I know, South Africa does not use the Euro... ? hahaha, Gearhead was in Holland, flying back today ?Tokai SA wrote:In South Africa?Gearhead wrote: Is 380 Euro a good price?
If you're in the UK, then check the headstock, I don't think it will look like the headstocks in the photos singe posted....it will be the specially 'modified' "UK" headstock, not like the guitars available in SAfrica.
Just to clarify a point here - while there are only a few differences in hardware (tailpiece, caps, pots) between an LS150 like yours (which is basically the equivalent of the R9, IINM) and the less expensive Japanese LS90 (equivalent to the LP Standard), a telling point I noticed is the difference in wood quality. Not only does the 150 have a one-piece back (oppose to the 3-piece of the LS90), but it was easily a full pound or more lighter and more resonant/vibrant. The LS90 can be upgraded a little, but would never quite be the LS150.
Having said that, the LS 90 is still very impressive. There are areas where Tokai could have skimped but didn't - the same pickups, bridge, tuners, etc. as the LS150, as well as the same quality construction and setup. So while the LS150 edges it out on overall tone and weight, the LS90 is definitely far better value for money.
Having said that, the LS 90 is still very impressive. There are areas where Tokai could have skimped but didn't - the same pickups, bridge, tuners, etc. as the LS150, as well as the same quality construction and setup. So while the LS150 edges it out on overall tone and weight, the LS90 is definitely far better value for money.
singe - The LS540 would retail in SAfrica for about R 90,000.00...about R 60,000.00 after store discount.
Alan - true about the LS90 VS LS150.
Just one correction...the LS150 has an aluminium tailpiece and brass saddles, also CTS pots, Switchcraft switches, and Sprague Orange drop capacitor...the LS90 will have Japanese "Gotoh" hardware and Japanese made switches.
sean - ahaa, I get it now. ?
Alan - true about the LS90 VS LS150.
Just one correction...the LS150 has an aluminium tailpiece and brass saddles, also CTS pots, Switchcraft switches, and Sprague Orange drop capacitor...the LS90 will have Japanese "Gotoh" hardware and Japanese made switches.
sean - ahaa, I get it now. ?
Innerestin'. When are your reviews coming out? ?Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Just to clarify a point here - while there are only a few differences in hardware (tailpiece, caps, pots) between an LS150 like yours (which is basically the equivalent of the R9, IINM) and the less expensive Japanese LS90 (equivalent to the LP Standard), a telling point I noticed is the difference in wood quality. Not only does the 150 have a one-piece back (oppose to the 3-piece of the LS90), but it was easily a full pound or more lighter and more resonant/vibrant. The LS90 can be upgraded a little, but would never quite be the LS150.
Having said that, the LS 90 is still very impressive. There are areas where Tokai could have skimped but didn't - the same pickups, bridge, tuners, etc. as the LS150, as well as the same quality construction and setup. So while the LS150 edges it out on overall tone and weight, the LS90 is definitely far better value for money.
The LS150 is probably a little more like the R8 because all the LS150s have plain tops (although I just discovered last night that there's this very faint "secret" flame that you can only see from a certain angle. Sunburst LPs rock ?). So it's not just that the wood is one piece vs. two pieces vs. three pieces? They're presumably selecting lighter woods for the higher end models. The resonance on that guitar is certainly beyond anything I've heard in a Les Paul before, but I haven't played any Custom Shop VOS Gibsons yet.
11 days later
60k? My word that is a lot of money for one guitar. That is vintage guitar territory.Tokai SA wrote: singe - The LS540 would retail in SAfrica for about R 90,000.00...about R 60,000.00 after store discount.
Alan - true about the LS90 VS LS150.
Just one correction...the LS150 has an aluminium tailpiece and brass saddles, also CTS pots, Switchcraft switches, and Sprague Orange drop capacitor...the LS90 will have Japanese "Gotoh" hardware and Japanese made switches.
sean - ahaa, I get it now. ?
Not Gibson vintage territory. Have you seen the prices on the new Gibson custom guitars like the Pearly Gates or the Mike Bloomfield? +/- $15K - and that's in country of origin! Put shipping, dealer markup and VAT on those and you're probably looking at R150K RRP. The top of the line hollowbody Citation is more than double that.Reinhard wrote: 60k? My word that is a lot of money for one guitar. That is vintage guitar territory.
Anyway, I think Tokai know the upper end of the market is almost entirely collectors and for those guys it is a case of "Only a Gibson is Good Enough", because for them it truly is more about what's on the headstock than what it plays/sounds like. So Tokai have those models so they can have a complete range and to showcase what they can really do when price is no object. Tokai's main thrust is getting great instruments in the hands of players at comparatively affordable prices - a market I think the big G has neglected for decades.
For 60K I'd get a vintage LP junior, or later 60's ES 335, 345, 330 etc.
The 15K pearlies etc are the really limited ones signed by BG himself, the VOS ones are a LOT cheaper, but I guess we are back at the same point again: If you want a high end guitar, import it yourself. Sure you don't get to play it first, but there are actually dealers that will give you tone reports on the guitars you are interested in. Even if you do get to try a 60K guitar locally first, how many will be in stock for you to truly pick the best one? Just a thought.
The 15K pearlies etc are the really limited ones signed by BG himself, the VOS ones are a LOT cheaper, but I guess we are back at the same point again: If you want a high end guitar, import it yourself. Sure you don't get to play it first, but there are actually dealers that will give you tone reports on the guitars you are interested in. Even if you do get to try a 60K guitar locally first, how many will be in stock for you to truly pick the best one? Just a thought.
Let's be clear about the usual distinction: Any price sounds grotesquely high when you're looking at SA retail prices. If you bought the Tokai in Japan, you could get it for comfortably under R40K. That top of the range Tokai with the AAAA solid flame top that I posted a picture of? Brand new right now: 394,000 Yen - R32,248. Cheaper than a new R9 bought in the USA.
There's a big problem on these discussions when we compare SA retail price for Tokai with US retail price for Gibson. The difference starts to vanish. Let's see what happens when we do it the other way around, shall we?
In Japan, a Tokai LS150 (R8 equivalent) can be had for R12K with the plastic still on the pickguard. And a Gibson R8 bought through take2 will cost you R46,302. Thirty four thousand rand sounds like quite a price for a different name on a headstock and some fret-end nibs, wouldn't you say?
http://more.take2.co.za/moreusa-gibson-1958-les-paul-plain-top-vos-electric-guitar-ice-tea-b000vtmc10.html
It's a ridiculous comparison.
And when we start comparing SA retail prices for Tokai with second hand prices for Gibson, things can get stupid. It actually starts to look like high end Tokais can cost more than VOS Gibsons. Not true.
Apples with apples.
We can't expect Tokais to have a lower markup in SA than other instruments, surely? That's bananas. These are, unfortunately, the (insane in my opinion) economics of the SA retail industry. MusicMadness was selling an LS150 at R16K - a totally acceptable price given shipping and markup. That can be compared against the R42K for a start.
Nobody will pay local retail prices for a Tokai LS470. Nor, if they have much sense, will they pay that money for a VOS Gibson, since it would be cheaper to fly to the USA and bring one back.
There's a big problem on these discussions when we compare SA retail price for Tokai with US retail price for Gibson. The difference starts to vanish. Let's see what happens when we do it the other way around, shall we?
In Japan, a Tokai LS150 (R8 equivalent) can be had for R12K with the plastic still on the pickguard. And a Gibson R8 bought through take2 will cost you R46,302. Thirty four thousand rand sounds like quite a price for a different name on a headstock and some fret-end nibs, wouldn't you say?
http://more.take2.co.za/moreusa-gibson-1958-les-paul-plain-top-vos-electric-guitar-ice-tea-b000vtmc10.html
It's a ridiculous comparison.
And when we start comparing SA retail prices for Tokai with second hand prices for Gibson, things can get stupid. It actually starts to look like high end Tokais can cost more than VOS Gibsons. Not true.
Apples with apples.
We can't expect Tokais to have a lower markup in SA than other instruments, surely? That's bananas. These are, unfortunately, the (insane in my opinion) economics of the SA retail industry. MusicMadness was selling an LS150 at R16K - a totally acceptable price given shipping and markup. That can be compared against the R42K for a start.
Nobody will pay local retail prices for a Tokai LS470. Nor, if they have much sense, will they pay that money for a VOS Gibson, since it would be cheaper to fly to the USA and bring one back.
Singemonkey you are talking a lot of sense. I don't see the point of buying any high end gear in SA to be honest. The custom shop strats at marshall music are crazy expensive, but if you end up getting a squier like I did, it's not worth the hassle of importing (just an example). I don't want people to hear the prices of gear locally and decide they can never get their dream guitar. Well I have harped on long enough about importing stuff yourself to save a load of cash, in future I'll just shut up ( I just don't want people to pay a fortune locally like I did, only to find out later you can do much better). Ok, now I will REALLY shut up lol :-[
I fully agree.For 60K I would want to buy an instrument that would hold its value at least.Reinhard wrote: For 60K I'd get a vintage LP junior, or later 60's ES 335, 345, 330 etc.
The 15K pearlies etc are the really limited ones signed by BG himself, the VOS ones are a LOT cheaper, but I guess we are back at the same point again: If you want a high end guitar, import it yourself. Sure you don't get to play it first, but there are actually dealers that will give you tone reports on the guitars you are interested in. Even if you do get to try a 60K guitar locally first, how many will be in stock for you to truly pick the best one? Just a thought.
6 years later
And you did, about 6 years later ?singemonkey wrote: I'm planning on writing an article for the forum detailing the most important stuff I've learned about these guitars from patient internet time-wastage 8)
I'll get to elite level at procrastination.
... one of these days.
... one of these days.