Conrad
I am also on a flamenco forum and it seems that asking questions about certain subjects like neo flamenco or fakemenco is a taboo. Not officially but it's some unwritten rule. I am quite disappointed about that but also pleased that there is this forum where the users are generally more open minded and mature.
Thank you guys.
I think Norio & Alan have alot to do with the culture of this forum and it is indeed quite rare.
NorioDS
Thanks Conrad ? I'm glad! I always wanted this forum to be a friendly, open, sharing kinda place with as little politics and crap as possible.
Nothing worse than a forum where a question is answered with, "Google it" or "Search before asking" or some other crap like that. This is an awesome community and, while I'm proud to have planted the seed, the real credit due is with you guys for being so awesome ?
Conrad
I my case, I was asking for someone to help me understand how to distinguish between flamenco, neo flamencoand fakemenco and they were so offended that these terms were in there that they said I should have put it in the off topic section LOL!
But yes there is always an atmosphere of acceptance at GFSA. It's kind of a safe place and there is real talent here and alot of it ?
inflames
understand how to distinguish between flamenco, neo flamencoand fakemenco
What? You could not just Google that?
Just kidding, I understand where you are coming from. The forum is easy going with a few easy rules to follow.
When are we getting I Love GFSA bumper stickers?
Keira-WitherKay
Conrad wrote
But yes there is always an atmosphere of acceptance at GFSA. It's kind of a safe place and there is real talent here and alot of it ?
yeah well GFSA is not a specialised forum but a general one open to all guitarists from bed room rockers to pro's and in all styles...so there is a natural tolerance since not everyone is familiar with the terminoligy of a particular genre ...... and i agree i also belong to some exclusive classical and acoustic forums where they particularly opinionated as to whats "accepted" or sanctioned by the site...... and don't seem to tolerate "questions" but want to talk about their luthier built guitars who of course have to be built by a select few heheheheh
people are so strange.........
and yeah Conrad i love this site too for it's tolerance and the amount of knowledge that is floating around....... and yeah if one cares to socialise on GFSA one gets to meet some cool people too...... it gets my vote too ..........
MikeM
I hate shredders.
Hahahahh just kidding. But I agree, this is more of a community than a forum. The only thing I don't like about the forum is how it really induces gas.. ☹
AlanRatcliffe
Well, there are quite a few flamenco purists who don't like what Paco de Lucia is doing (they feel flamenco guitar is about accompanying dance and song, not solo performance).
As to the attitude on this forum - like Norio I feel it is the members themselves creating the vibe, not a set of rules or those of us who enforce them. Most of my moderation time is spent dealing with spammers and it's not often at all that I have to step in with the regular members (and, more often than not, any offence is unintentional). I made the point the other day in another thread that we do not moderate or censor language (beyond hate speech or personal attacks), and still we don't get much strong language around here - so it's all down to the community having respect and consideration for each other, rather than fear of the (ban)hammer of the mods. ?
All in all, I feel proud to be a member here. (sniff)
Conrad
? That is cool
Renesongs
So Conrad how to distinguish between flamenco, neo flamenco and fakemenco - I Googled fakemeco it moment ago, I got caught a thread were these guys boycott certain restaurants because they hire fakemeco musicians thank goodness they didn't notice that the Picasso on the wall was only a print that would have soured there authentic Mexican refried beans . LOL
singemonkey
This forum is just sufficiently diverse. There are camps here too, but everyone has enough allies not to feel excluded - like the shred vs. anti-shred camps. Neither group dominates enough to make the other group feel persecuted. And there are all kinds of people in the middle.
Conrad
Renesongs wrote
So Conrad how to distinguish between flamenco, neo flamenco and fakemenco - I Googled fakemeco it moment ago, I got caught a thread were these guys boycott certain restaurants because they hire fakemeco musicians thank goodness they didn't notice that the Picasso on the wall was only a print that would have soured there authentic Mexican refried beans . LOL
That kind of made my morning. ?
Keira-WitherKay
yeah re the fakemenco heheheheh yeah i know it exists but really music is about evolving ........ just like every form of music has..... even classical......and jazz..........
especially jazz but they get around it by not calling modern jazz fake ..which is slightly derogetory but by calling original jazz "standards" which maybe flamenco should embrace ...so you could advertise you doing modern flamenco or new flamenco but fakemenco is insulting ..cos most of us me included who do a hybrid flamenco style should not be seen as fake but as musicians who have evolved and absorbed the flamenco style into our own unique styles.............
cos for me and my musical 'voice" i steal from everything i hear ...quite unashabably .....flamenco/classical/jazz/blues/ragtime/african/arabic /cuban/indian/ latin/ celtic and don't truly specialise in any style... but out of that have my own unique voice........ but yes i have studied flamenco and even in spain so am i that fake just cos i choose to compose my own "fakemenco compositions " and don't play the "classic pieces" like the purists........i do same for classical .... i'm truly bored with the prescibed classical/flamenco repetoire one hears in every "purist " show ...how boring ......
so "fake" hell NO .......... heheheh i prefer to think of myself as original.......
and conrad don't let this get under your skin in any way .......... keep composing in your own style and find your own voice within the genre ....keen to hear your new work ....... so keep me posted on any shows
lol the last point is that the fakemenco players have done more to raise popular interest in flamenco through Paco de lucia and even our world chart topping duo Rodriygo y Gabriella from mexico not even spain .......not even paco makes the world pop charts but this mexican duo did...............
Renesongs
Accessibility is the key here. As soon as an art form become more accessible to the general public the pseudo-intelligentsia have to deride it with labels like pop fake sell-out to protect there precious delusions of them being elite, having class or good taste.
Gearhead
....which takes nothing away from the fact that there is such a thing as pop fake sell-out in a lot of music styles >☹
DonovanB
Gearhead wrote
....which takes nothing away from the fact that there is such a thing as pop fake sell-out Disney in a lot of music styles >☹
Fixed....
Conrad
Gearhead wrote
....which takes nothing away from the fact that there is such a thing as pop fake sell-out in a lot of music styles >☹
OK and if someone new to your favourite genre were to ask you for a definition of this sell out sub genre for their education, would you respond by telling them that the fact that they don't know yet is simply because they will never know and don't have the ability to discern?
I don't think one can discern between 2 things when one has no information on one of those things. It's logically impossible to discern between a triangle and another shape you have never seen if your only shape of reference is a triangle.
I think using adjectives like "fake" in naming a music genre is derogatory by the pure semantics of such an adjective. There is no logic to support a dismissive response so I just think it's some form of elitism.
Gearhead
Well, if you take fake as to mean not conforming to a well defined genre, you're right. If you take it to read: not music for the sake of music but sound for the sake of profit, then I can name quite a few (in fact, go through the charts and name a couple that do NOT meet this criterium). That's all I wanted to say. If that makes me elitist, then maybe I am. Sorry.
Bob-Dubery
I think you do get musics that are watered down, diluted. Is that fake? I'm not sure. You get this a lot with the cross over from classical to easy listening. Singers who are "classically trained" (whatever that means) but don't really have the power or range or technique to truly tackle opera. They'd be lightweight in opera - if they're marketable they may do well in some kind of easy listening style.
As I said, I don't know if this music is "fake" but it's generally insipid. It's the inverse of the snobbery that Rene was talking about - it has just enough of a hint of the classical to satisfy people who want to believe that they are listening to something substantial but also don't want anything to makes too strong a statement or requires an effort on the part of the listener. Sarah Brightman is an example of this sort of stuff. I actually think she does have real talent as a vocalist - it's not a question of whether or not she can sing, but what she chooses to sing and in what aural settings.
I think you get this with world music (EG the awful, corny Celtic Woman), with hard rock - pop music that rocks just a calculated little bit and has enough sort of cliched solos to allow whoever it is who buys this stuff to believe that they and the music that they listen to has real attitude. "Jazz" certainly - there's an awful lot of easy listening, superficially shining but ultimately shallow easy-listening instrumentals and medium-paced grooves with sweet backing vocals masquerading as "jazz" these days.
This, of course, might stamp me as a being a bit of a snob. How dare I pooh pooh musicians who have sold so many records, given so many people pleasure?
Perhaps I'm the one missing out here. Perhaps this is the price I pay for being a purist.
This is NOT a tilt at Rene or Conrad. I am just chucking in my 5c worth about real and fake.
Renesongs
I draw a distinction between accessibility and commercialism. Commercialism will take cheap tasteless unsatisfying drivel and market it as Christmas with [Add artist here] or Classics [add genre here] Vol 7 Platinum collection. Accessibility will take an esoteric art form and make it understandable to a wider audience who may or may not go on to appreciate the more complex forms of that art. Naturally the purist will rebel against accessibility because it depreciates their exclusivity or elitism and shifts them a small step back into intellectual peasantry.
Conrad
I think they were referring to this as fake:
and
which is difficult for me to understand. I mean what did we even copy. We wrote those pieces.
