NorioDS
I have a terrible confession to make - I have yet to learn a whole song. Back in the days when I started learning to play guitar, my first teacher (Colette somethingortheother) taught me the chords to lots of songs including "Stand By Me", "Hotel California", etc. But I never learned the theory behind those chords, chord progressions or anything like that.
So that's about the closest I came to learning any song -> playing the chords from a chord-sheet. Hardly exciting.
Meir (my 2nd guitar teacher whom I practically worship and owe my new-found love of the guitar to) has taught me the chord formulas, how to learn a song by ear, scale formulas and how to figure basically ANYTHING out using the major scale.
However, with all that behind me, when I pick up a guitar, I tend to 1) waffle using just 1 scale over a whole song and 2) never play a full song. Which limits, quite severely, what I can do on the guitar.
In my latest lesson with Meir (over 1-2 months ago), he encouraged me to learn the chords to a song so I could figure out a melody + solo based on that so that it "fits" better.
Yesterday I decided to apply some of the things Meir has taught me to learning one of the "songs" on my Korg. I know it's in D-major (through experimentation) so I've had PLENTY fun improvising over it but I don't really know the chord progression or anything else like that and I could feel that I was going nowhere slowly, so here's what I did.
How to Figure out a Song
1. Figure out the bass notes of each chord. The easiest way to do this is to play the song and then try and match what you're hearing with notes on your low E string. (Something Meir taught me). I've struggled with this technique quite a bit - until yesterday. If you turn the TONE knob of your guitar WAY down, your guitar will sound similar to a bass guitar. (Another trick I learned from Meir). Applying this to figuring out what bass notes are being played in a song makes it MUCH easier for the untrained ear as the sound you get on your guitar will more closely match what you hear in your headphones.
The Korg also helps with this as it has some presets that can be used with a bass guitar. I just turn my tone knob down and use these on my guitar. LOTS of fun and effective.
This was the most important part of the whole process. This little "trick", I believe, has catapulted me forward very quickly and I can see myself using it to learn a LOT of new songs in the future but, for now, I just want to complete this current song ?
Of course, it helps that the Korg just plays bass and percussion so you don't have any rhythm, vocals or lead guitar to confuse you. Still, it should be easier now - so give that a shot and see how far you can get.
2. Now that I know the bass notes to the intro and opening verse - I figured it might be fun to figure out what actual chord progression was being used. All I did here was try and play a major chord version of each note. So for D, I played D major. It sounded good. For G, I played G major. It sounded good. For B, I played B major. It sounded kak. I then tried B minor. It sounded good. I nearly fell off my chair. For A, I played A major. It sounded good. Now I knew the intro chords. Let me remind you, at this point, that I've never successfully worked out the bass to a song, the chords to a song or the key of a song without basically figuring out the first/last note and then trying major and minor scales over it.
Basically, I used to be into quick fixes but now I knew a more precise, guaranteed way of learning a song.
Now, with the D, G, A and Bm (and later on, the Gb), I *know*, based on the major scale, that this song is in D major. I *know* it. No guess work. WOW - awesome feeling ?
3. The third part, and the part I looked forward to the most, was playing a different scale over each chord. I just basically alternated between Major and Minor scales for the Major and Minor chords, making sure that I used common notes in each to join them. The result? A melody that worked quite well over the chords - without any guess work. That's probably my biggest surprise -> I did this ALL without guessing my way through it. THAT's an amazing feeling. And it has inspired me to do a LOT more with this.
Now I want to mess around with slightly different chords. Add in a maj7 where there used to be a maj, and so on. Just to give it a bit more flavour. I also can record my own rhythm guitar over the progression which means I can give it a very different feel than what it has now (which is rather boring).
I also want to apply some modal theory to this. Maybe try B Dorian over the Bmin chord and A Mixolydian over the A major chord. Once I get comfortable with that, I may move on to less-pop-sounding scales and do Phrygian over Bmin and Lydian over A major. It'll probably sound messy in the beginning but, eventually, I know this will lead me to my ultimate goal: writing and playing my own AWESOME music ?
I'm so excited! Hope this helps some other poor, struggling soul out there who has hit a brick wall! Don't give up dude, we've all been there and it IS surmountable!
RobK
Most of the things you mentioned are exactly the reason I'm looking for a teacher. I can only go so far by myself before I start asking why? and how?
I have just begun reading a bit on music theory (as it applies to guitar -ie, the scales, chord theory, etc.) and it seems a little clearer, but there are still questions. So I'm hoping a teacher will be able to clear everything up as well as teach me the playing part ? My thiking is that knowing the why and how will make me a much better player/guitarist that just downloading tabs off the web.
Catch 22 for me is that I haven't had much time lately to go looking, so insights like yours help a lot.
Thanks
NorioDS
My pleasure dude ? The hows and whys definitely make you a better muso! 2 musos can learn the same song but if muso A learns to play it note for note and never learns the hows and whys and player B learns the hows and whys AND how to play the song, player B will be able to use the knowledge gained to learn other songs without help from his teacher. Enjoy!
chris77
It also depends on your personal ambitions. If you want to excell, then a tutor or mentor to show you a few tricks is a must. I've been playing for about ten years and often ponder how much better I could've become - quicker than I have - if I took lessons back then. The better laid the foundation, the stronger the building. As it stands though, it took me a long time to figure out what could have been shown to me in minutes. Even though I would love to become a better all round player, I by now have learned enough to be able to satisfy my own modest ambitions - which is to play a recognisable version of songs I like and to jam with friends when the opportunity arises. I cant play any song note for note exactly like the original and doubt that I could even play my own stuff the same way twice, but I enjoy every minute I play because I'm doing something that I love. So basically my advice is this - If you wish to become a good guitarist quicker, go for at least a few lessons to teach you basic theory. You wont regret it. And if you ant to become a really really good guitarist, capable of throwing it down with the best, and you think you have the talent (and be honest with yourself when you answer that) then do as much as possible as quickly as possible. Go for lessons, take courses, hang out with other musos, read as much as you can and practice, practice, practice. The higher outcome requires a bigger input. If however you only wish to learn enough to keep yourself happy, then its perfectly fine to figure things out at your own pace and in your own way. Just remember that it will take time and patience doing it that way. There is no easier way to learn just because you might not want to perform publicly. The basics remain the same and learning them require perseverance and time. (In my case 10 years and counting...) So set your goals, determine your needs and then prepare to commit to it for the long haul. In the end it will all be worth it, you'll see.
trungboyshigh
Wow thanks! This is 1 awesome post!
NorioDS
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zappa
Play your fav lead guitar piece. Then try play the lead exactly like the origional artist. Listen very carefully to each note. You know you can play the same note on different strings. So was that E note you heard played with the 1st string open, or on the B string 5th fret etc.
This can be tricky especially when your guitar/amp has a different tonal quality to the guitar/amp used by the artist. Also like your guitar = R 5000, but artists guitar cost R30 000.
Often you can play the same riff in several different positions on the neck, finding the right spot pays dividends in the long run.
Hope this helps.
NorioDS
Ja it's quite amazing, actually, how the specific note you play (string and fret) can change the feel so much.
Also the way you pick it (up-stroke/down-stroke/soft/hard/finger/nail/thumb/coin) or don't pick it at all (bend, slide, hammer-on) etc make a HUGE difference.
My teacher, Meir, is very pedantic about playing Satriani songs as closely to the way he plays them as possible. Right down to the up-strokes and everything. It makes you realise how much work goes into playing and writing those songs - and they do it so naturally and without thinking.
That's why I think it's important to take a Satriani-inspired approach to guitar: learn everything there is to learn in every way possible so that you're not thinking "is this the right note" but rather "is this the note I want to play here/now". Miles and miles to go before I get there though ?
zappa
Satriani is a master but I think Stevie Vai somehow manages to be a more complete guitarist.
When I listen to Satriani I hear lots of scales, whereas Vai squeezes a melody out of what he's playing instead of it just sounding like a pure scale.
On the other hand I have a much bigger collection of VAI than Satriani, I'll have to see what I may have missed on YouTube.
Then of course you could dump Satriani (praise be his name) for a month and concentrate on SRV or Gary Moore, and see what happens. ?
NorioDS
I love some of Vai's stuff but, in general, I find Joe's stuff to be more musical ? Vai uses too much "weird" stuff in his songs for my liking. It often feels like Vai is proving a point and Satch is out there just having fun.
Definitely listen to Joe's 2 more recent albums to get a flavour of what I mean. I get you about the scales but that's just the fluff, look in-between for some of the most amazing melodies ever. Even his scale-runs are melodic ?
[deleted]
Well done Norio, I'm glad to see you're discovering the mysteries that make up music. It's like following a treasure map. You're going about it in just the right way, I think. Next time you figure out the chords of a song by ear (a very good exercise) and you know what key it is in to start off with, you can switch the process around a little and write down all the chords that you know are in that scale. That way when you come across them you'll be able to recognise them faster.
And once you're comfortable with that you may even start noticing common patterns that people use in chord progressions. And then you'll come across modulations. They'll throw you off for a bit untill you start recognising common paterns there too.
But it sounds like you're having great fun and you're taking your playing a lot further.
RobK
chris77 wrote:
So basically my advice is this - If you wish to become a good guitarist quicker, go for at least a few lessons to teach you basic theory. You wont regret it. And if you ant to become a really really good guitarist, capable of throwing it down with the best, and you think you have the talent (and be honest with yourself when you answer that) then do as much as possible as quickly as possible. Go for lessons, take courses, hang out with other musos, read as much as you can and practice, practice, practice. The higher outcome requires a bigger input. If however you only wish to learn enough to keep yourself happy, then its perfectly fine to figure things out at your own pace and in your own way. Just remember that it will take time and patience doing it that way. There is no easier way to learn just because you might not want to perform publicly. The basics remain the same and learning them require perseverance and time. (In my case 10 years and counting...) So set your goals, determine your needs and then prepare to commit to it for the long haul. In the end it will all be worth it, you'll see.
That's all very good advice. I have no dreams of becoming a superstar musician. Already have a job, so want to keep this as a hobby. ?
I can try do this on my own, but as you've experienced, it might take a very long time to get where I want to be (might take a long time anyway). So, I need a teacher to help me with get the basics right, and then to guide me as I move forward towards my goals, even though those will most probably change as I go along ?
Norio wrote:
... learn everything there is to learn in every way possible so that you're not thinking "is this the right note" but rather "is this the note I want to play here/now"
...and get to a point where you won't even have to think about the notes, you'll know they're the right ones ?
Viccy wrote:
Well done Norio, I'm glad to see you're discovering the mysteries that make up music. It's like following a treasure map. You're going about it in just the right way, I think. Next time you figure out the chords of a song by ear (a very good exercise) and you know what key it is in to start off with, you can switch the process around a little and write down all the chords that you know are in that scale. That way when you come across them you'll be able to recognise them faster.
And once you're comfortable with that you may even start noticing common patterns that people use in chord progressions. And then you'll come across modulations. They'll throw you off for a bit untill you start recognising common paterns there too.
But it sounds like you're having great fun and you're taking your playing a lot further.
...just don't start with modes and shapes and circles and pretzels ??? - those just go right over my head within the first sentence ?
arjunmenon
Nice post Norio.
+1 with Meir for being pedantic and parting a bit of that to you as well.
Also, i'm impressed you mentioned the "soloing chord per chord" idea because it is a very jazz concept that many people avoid for reasons beyond me. I guess it's easier to stick in one key and play around in that as opposed to having to think of each chord as a separate starting point and playing with the scales/modes that go with that chord.
All in all, good one!
NorioDS
Thanks guys ?
Treasure map is spot on! It's so much fun - makes me feel like a kid in a candy store. Or Aubs in a music store ?
I got the following the chords thing from Marty Friedman - very exciting stuff he teaches. Way beyond me for now but very exciting and I look forward to reaching that point (where I can fluently follow the chords of the song in my lead) as well!
aubs1
Hello Norio......... ? :woohoo: Interesting post though......... 8)
Attila
My 25 south African cents if I may ....nice post Norio
You are right identifying the "key" is the key, and agree and like your method of learning to figure out songs makes good sense
Although for some folks its important to try to get it to sound just like the original artist until thier fingers bleed, To me, the ablity to spontaneously weave a melody through any bunch of chords........is the true genius of making music,
There is this chap. Kirk Lorange, Inventor of the Plane Talk guitar lessons which teaches this. through a comic type book, His teachings are aimed to enable one to improvise at will, by playing melodies through understanding the relationships of strings, chords and notes. he refers to his "chord or three notes of the moment"
I have attached a vid of him playing an improv version of Jimi's "Little Wing" if this does not make you wannan grab your guitar .......not a lot will and may be its just me wanting to play like that ...sooo badly ? any way enjoy
RobK
One day I'll be able to do improvs like that ?
NorioDS
Absolutely with you, Attila. My goal in learning songs is more so I can understand the intention of the original artist and pick up some tips and tricks along the way. The end goal, however, is to improv like a king. Nothing prettier ?
