Ok

Seems that Nories site defaults to 600x128 as a work around open the associated URL's to see the pics more clearly

Attilla, post or PM your fixed version and I'll put it here ?

Awesome looking post, looking forward to reading it once it's sorted!

This is a really good post once I understood it ?, I am going to really practice this alot, it will be a bit tricky at first, but.... do, a deer a female.... sorry, your magic has already started eating at my medulla, thankx.

Hi Willem,

I am glad that this has helped, I have alway found humming or singing the notes I am playing helps when learning a new piece, using tonic Solfa, has given me the standard set of "keys" to unlock music a kind of "rosetta stone"

enjoy and dont damage your medulla..... attila

Nice one!

In case this thread isn't dead... Attila, is there a quick way of hopping to the relative pentatonic without noodling until it sounds right? Eg. if the tonal centre of the chord progression is A major, what minor pentatonics fit for soloing?

Yep and thought it was going to be a slow afternoon !!!!! ?


To answer that I am going to pass the buck a bit as this fine gent Mike Dodge sez it all, and lot better than I can and in fact adds more dimensions to your question I Hope I understood your question correctly. - which is what defines bridging between Major and minor Pent. and back. !!!!



Advanced Pentatonic Lessons Introduction



"Hmmm, Advanced Pentatonic Scales…

It’s been a standard for years for guitarist to learn a few chords, learn some chord progressions/songs, then learn the Minor/Blues Pentatonic Scale…and then, just be able to solo at will.

Well, many players find out that knowing these few notes does create a lot of excitement at first, but that excitement dissipates into ruts, repeating themselves too much, and just plain no where else to go.

But, in the meantime you’re hearing albums and albums worth of great players who primarily use theses Pentatonic scales, and can just keep creating and creating.

Well, some of us stay in the rut and either give up or we try and branch out into theory because there has to be some magical sentence out there you’re going to find that is going to tie everything together.

Well, there is no magical sentence, and the only way for you to grab onto something is to either be taught, which doesn’t always work, or for you to visualize with your eyes and ears what all these notes really mean.

I started with the Minor/Blues Scale as many of other people have. Then my quest led me to Modes, which lead me to building chords from a scale, or key. But, you know what…none of that helped me with the Pentatonic scales…I was still playing my old favorite/standard blues licks, and having difficulties learning others solo’s to unlock the magic.

So, by this time I had the Minor/Blues and Major Pentatonic scales, and all the Diatonic Modes, some Exotic scales, and knew a bunch of chords and how they were built.

One day something clicked…why does a Minor Pentatonic scale fit over a Major chord? (such as a playing the Blues scale over a I-IV-V progression). All these chords were Major chords but, I was playing Minor scales over them, and it worked. How was this possible.

So, now with my background in theory I ventured out to see what each of the scales notes was in relation to the chord I was playing. I realized that a Minor Pentatonic Scale was actually made up of:

1 b3 4 5 b7 1 (or, root, minor 3rd, perfect 4th, perfect 5th, minor 7, root) in relation to the root of the chord I was playing the scale over.

(b or "flat", minor, and m can be used interchangeably, IOW b3 can be termed as either a b3, flat 3, minor 3, or m3 they all mean the same thing AND :::::both M3 or Major3 mean a Major 3rd. If you need more on this, let me know)

Now came my first dilemma, or epiphany if you will…that most every time I played the b3 I was actually giving it a slight bend, trying to force or resolve it to the M3 (Major third). And, since the M3 was a note contained in the Major chord I was playing the b3 against…it only make sense why I was doing the little bend. I was making the scale “fit” the chord.

And, it made sense why Chuck Berry, Keith Richards, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck and others were doing the same thing.

So, with this I realized that the b3 was a passing-tone to the Major 3rd to resolve the note back into the chord. Since the b3 and M3 are a half-step from each other you end up with a half-step clash of notes just wanting to resolve.

With this dilemma I also wondered why...if playing a major chord why does it make sense to play the Minor Pentatonic, as opposed to the Major Pentatonic? The Major Pentatonic also sounded good, but it was more of a “Do re mi” type sound. But, it fit over the Major chord just fine also.

The Major Pentatonic scale consists of: root M2 M3 P5 M6 root

So I wrote out both of the scales on a piece of paper over a fretboard diagram, individually and on top of each other, or super-imposed them, onto one fretboard.

Written this way I saw these intervals in relation to the root:

Root M2 m3 M3 P4 P5 M6 m7 Root in relation to the root of the Major chord I was playing.

What opened my eyes even further was when I took the Blues and Major Pentatonic scales and super-imposed them. This gave a bunch of chromatic possibilities. I ended up with these intervals:

Root M2 m3 M3 P4 b5 P5 M6 m7 Root

I realized that there were common notes between the two scales. They were: root and P5. So, this gave me some sense of a common between the two scales.

But, the big thing I realized was the chromatic notes I could now see with the M2 m3 M3 P4 b5 P5.

But I also noticed that if I play those chromatic notes in order ascending and descending they really did nothing for my playing or my musical vocabulary. Neither did playing the whole super-imposed scale straight up and down. It just didn’t sound musical OR riff based.

So, I had to figure out how to mesh this bigger super-imposed scale into my playing. It had to mean something.

What I did was I started playing each of the scales individually listening to what each scale was saying to me and the chord.

What I found was the Blues scale gave me the “gritty digging-in” sound against the chord, almost rebellious. But, the Major Pentatonic catered to the chord better. It seemed to “outline” the chord better. More “Do Ra Mi” than rebellion.

Two completely different textures, against the same chord.

So, now I would consciously try playing solo’s that jumped between the two scales and see if I could “talk” in both scales simultaneously. It didn’t sound great at first but both scales did fit the chord...no question.

The question was, how do I intermingle the scales and use them as one scale as opposed to two.

The key lied in the chromatic notes.

These notes were so close to each other that I should try using them to shift between the two scales without it sounding like I was playing one scale and THEN the other.

As I did this I tried applying it to solo’s I was trying to learn by my guitar heroes. I found The Allman Brothers, Skynyrd, Page, Beck, Clapton, Berry, Richards, Van Halen, Ronson, Morse, and just about everyone I listened to was playing not one scale…but two or more scales.

Sweet! Now I could learn on my own AND have some guidance from the Masters.

Now I was ready to dig in even deeper.

I found that with this super-imposed scale that it not only contained the Minor and Major Pentatonic scales and the Blues scale…but it also contained the Dorian and Mixolydian modes.

Bingo. All the articles I read up to this point now made sense when guitarist said they would play Pentatonics, Blues, Dorian, and Mixolydian…they were actually playing the super-imposed scale that I had discovered for myself. Maybe they thought of them as individual scales...but, by this time was I thinking of them as one scale. Here’s the break down of the scale intervals contained in this super-imposed scale:



Minor Pentatonic: R b3 4 5 b7 R

Major Pentatonic: R M2 M3 5 M6 R

Blues Scale: R b3 4 b5 5 b7 R

Dorian: R M2 b3 4 5 M6 b7 R

Mixolydian: R M2 M3 4 5 M6 b7 R



Super-Imposed Scale: R M2 b3 M3 4 b5 5 M6 b7 R



I also realized that the Super-Imposed scale was almost a complete chromatic scale, minus the b2 b6 and M7 intervals. I have since discovered a way to think of the complete chromatic scale when playing everything, but that’s a whole other lesson further down the road. But, I will be throwing in comparisons to the different modes through out the tutorial so I’m sure we’ll touch on it.

Ok, now you have everything thrown at you at you should be able to master this on your own…yeah right!

As with anything we need to step back, look at these scales individually, across the fretboard, learn to use them, then take the next step into fusing things together. Above all, to play in this "mind frame" you will really need to be listening to what’s going on…we are going to try and make the leap from “patterns” to “music”.


Check out more advanced explanations at http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/AdvPent/AvdPentTOC.htm
________________________________________________________



I don’t know everything about music and that’s a fact but I have successfully taught this to advanced students, and students who advanced into this. So, I am going to take a slow approach to explaining it since I’m going to take the time doing it.

It’s proven you can do so many things with the Pentatonic scales, and that comes from everyone “thinking” about them differently. This is what’s made them survive for so long. These little scales in the right hands can make centuries of music. "

Man, that was a lot of writing for a couple of five note scales!!!! .....thanks Mike

+1 with Attila

Jack Flash Jr wrote: Eg. if the tonal centre of the chord progression is A major, what minor pentatonics fit for soloing?

In the key of A major, your minor sounds come from B Dorian (the pentatonic would be the 1, b3, 4, 5 & b7 i.e. B,D,E,F# & A), C# phrygian, F# Aeolian and G# locrian (as long as you don't play the b5).
To highlight a minor pentatonic sound, as long as you can emphasise a minor interval (i.e. distance from 1 to b3), followed by a major interval (i.e. distance from b3 to 5) and then a minor interval ( i.e. distance from 5 to b7), you should be fine.
In the case of the locrian, however, you could play the 1,b3,4, b6 & b7. The two minor intervals in there should sound interesting.

Arjun Menon wrote: +1 with Attila

Jack Flash Jr wrote: Eg. if the tonal centre of the chord progression is A major, what minor pentatonics fit for soloing?

In the key of A major, your minor sounds come from B Dorian (the pentatonic would be the 1, b3, 4, 5 & b7 i.e. B,D,E,F# & A), C# phrygian, F# Aeolian and G# locrian (as long as you don't play the b5).
To highlight a minor pentatonic sound, as long as you can emphasise a minor interval (i.e. distance from 1 to b3), followed by a major interval (i.e. distance from b3 to 5) and then a minor interval ( i.e. distance from 5 to b7), you should be fine.
In the case of the locrian, however, you could play the 1,b3,4, b6 & b7. The two minor intervals in there should sound interesting.

Yaaaa Wot he said !!! on the button old boy

Hmm, I hear what everyone is saying, but wasn't he asking a question which requires a lot more of a simple answer?

If you're playing in the key of A major, you'll play the relative minor pentatonic, which would be F#m..

Or did i miss the boat somewhere along in these HUGE posts?

mmmmmmm hehehehhe guys i don't wanna slate anything said here cos it's all fabulous ...it's just the title..... ........... but this is basic music theory 101 ...... and NOT playing by ear....... as i understand it ......... so yeah maybe just change the title ...

i checked this out cos i wanted to see how someone who never applied music theory would actually approach playing ... something i was always amazed at.... i have known one guy who was a pro and never knew the chord names........ hhehheeh but he'd just jam along and sound great ........ good ears i think and i must admit i don't know how people manage to play without the basic theory.............

as for your question posted re playing penta's in key of A ............

yes in most cases one would play the minor pentatonic in the relative minor.......... but you never mentioned of course except for blues which in many instances or rather most will be the minor pentatonic with the added note (b5) (the blue note as it's often refered to) to now make it the 6 note blues scale but one plays it outa the key not the relative minor ... so one would play a minor pentatonic or blues scale in A over a major A chord that minor scale sound over the major chord sequence ...and major bass line( the bassist plays a major 3rd in the bass lines while you as a guitarist play a minor 3rd in your solo).....is what is giving it that blues sound.......

also for interest sake you know of course you can take a standard penta and turn it into a country scale by including the minor 3rd as well as the major 3rd .........

have fun ....... this little bit of knowledge can lead to a wealth of playing

peace and light
keira

guitarboy2828 wrote: Hmm, I hear what everyone is saying, but wasn't he asking a question which requires a lot more of a simple answer?

If you're playing in the key of A major, you'll play the relative minor pentatonic, which would be F#m..

Or did i miss the boat somewhere along in these HUGE posts?

yep just a bit .... he is looking at a method to hopping to ......

Thanks all... actually guitarboy2828 was right BUT that said, Attila, Arjun and Keira leading me down a lovely path back into the theory jungle - I actually started with classical but a couple of years in the grunge era started and those bastards made me lose my track ? plus I'm lazy, should have remembered Circle of Fifths. Related to Attila's answer is this which I was doing instinctively anyway:
http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Lessons/Lesson-Of-The-Day/Chromatic-Blues-Runs-827/

Hey Attila - Thanks SO much for the solfa lesson, I see it being REALLY useful.

Gareth wrote: Hey Attila - Thanks SO much for the solfa lesson, I see it being REALLY useful.

Great to hear Gareth - ?

I dont really agree with Kiera's comment about the title - if you remember the advert where the monkey takes the okes cider and he asks if Barry Hilton knew the monkey took his drink and he replies: No ! but if you can hum it .... I can play it .... and it is just so and then you can apply that to the glockenspiel or the triangle ....if you wanted ..... in my humble opinion of course.

Guys,

I'm the one that wrote that article on solfege. If you have any questions whatsoever regarding using/learning solfege, please ask and I'll do my best to help you!

Also cheers for recognizing this as useful information. A forum in SA is the last place I would have thought my work would show up!

I have more to add to this also. Solfege can be used as a tool for sight reading and playing from standard notation, and in the same way, for transcribing directly to standard notation.

Please ignore the part describing modes, the way I described it there won't do your ears many favors, I've noticed.

When I get some free time I'll write up this information.