DonovanB
I'm not sure about everyone else, but I push myself hard. I expect the best of myself and i am my worst critic.
that said I also expect the best from people I jam with. so I always have high expectations of them. Playing in more than one band as left me spoilt for choice. I play with great drummers, great bass players, great keys players, fantastic singers and some great people (experience & attitude). yet in each band there is a weak link (IMO)
For example, I play with a drummer who is so good, I can give him an adjective, and he can get the beat. Another not. One has a keys player who can really send it, the other not so much.
I also think I have a problem when I play bass and the guitarist doesn't live up to my standard. I try so hard not to be a doos but I might still come across as one.
what am I doing wrong? How do you okes get around band politics? I don't want to be THAT guy in the band but sometimes the combinations get to me.
help?
Neps
Well... that is a sticky situation... 1st of all, make sure you are as good as you make yourself out to be.. I once played in a band, threw a tantrum cause the one guy couldn't get the bass riff down, and then he produced to outplay me on drums.. ??? :-[ So naturally I moved from drums to 'no-band' in a matter of minutes.
But I do find myself in situations like yours quite often.. What I do is try and give constructive critisism. By being helpfull, more clear in what 'we should be doing' and also listening to their advice.. I've found that by just changing the rythem of the song slightly, some members of a band actually flow better..
I've been in bands where it was a dictatorship, and others where the whole band was a democracy. Te dictatorship one I didn't say a word, let the guy sort out the average players himself. In the democracy I try to help, but I do expect that a guy must improve.. If he still makes the same mistake after 2 months of practice, then we'll all sit down and openly discuss whats going on. It also clears the air, and makes for better practices..
cain
Hi DonovanB
I think i know where you're coming from. I have the opinion that one must always drive yourself to be better but you must never criticise yourself, I'm a prime example of that. It hinders yourself and your creativity, try to be better but never tell yourself your playing bad, those kinda things eventually starts to stick and make you play worse and worse, its negative self talk and should be stopped.
As for the band members. I was in a church band, where the leader looked down at me, broke me down and all those kind of things. I know I'm a better guitarist than he would ever be, but the doubt that he planted in me and the doubt with my playing, manifested inside my playing. When dealing with people, have faith that they will perform, sometimes "you gotta have faith" as the george michael song says. Maybe believing in a muso is the one thing he needs to perform as with anything else in life. The other thing is, there's nothing wrong with helping someone, and sometimes it's what you say but most of the time its HOW you say it. By making suggestions or saying its unlike him to make that mistake, is a much nicer and better way of saying, you made a mistake ( he knows he did and by focussing on it, you make his subconscious focus on that mistake, which will lead in him making it again ).
Sometimes we just need someone to believe in us and we be even better. Just my take on it, you're not a snob tho, just remember, you could be the most influential person to someone else and who knows he might be the next legend, by a few words from you ...
DonovanB
thanks guys.
i guess it boils down to communication. I try take suggestions and criticism well. but in the one band I reckon the guitarist doesn't like me or something. It's hectic because I try so hard to only make positive suggestions. but i only get negative back. I dont like that.
In another band I get such good feedback i think they are lying ?
then in the third everyone is so chilled and we throw ideas around all the time. I don't think its too good for my sanity.
dirkv
Becareful of Pride
AlanRatcliffe
I wouldn't call you a snob - you're just more serious about the music than you are about the people you play it with.
We all make some compromises with members (well... until we reach the point where we can afford to hire the best). Some of us are more forgiving than others and are happy settling for players we get along with rather than the best possible players, while with others (like yourself) the music comes first. Sometimes there is a particular musical vibe with certain, lesser players that somehow elevates the band beyond the abilities of the "weakest link" members, or even beyond what you would get with a better player to replace them.
It's ultimately your choice though. Band relationships are still relationships and you do have to work at them, and sometimes you have to end them. So if you are unhappy, move on. Fine if you are getting paid for play (at least until something better comes along), but otherwise you're just wasting time with something destructive.
I was once a drummer in a band where I was a better guitarist than the guitar player, but it suited me for a time because I was just as crappy a drummer and was doing it for the experience. However I made a mistake in not moving along sooner, staying out of loyalty, because I liked them and knew that there were some really good members. I also owned the PA and the practice space, so I knew that if I left the band would fold. So I held on for way too long, trying to make a limping dog run. I eventually did leave, and the band did fold, which caused me some guilt at the time, but now the members with potential have moved on to better things (as have I).
One thing I would say is that your rhythm section has to be at least solid as a rock - if you haven't got that, the band is probably going nowhere. Harder to get gigs and even if you get a deal (less likely though), the company will want you to replace the rhythm section.
Sounds like you might be best served by taking the helm and putting together your own ensemble from the best players in the bands you play with. Some guys are band loyalists, but if you are a respected player yourself you should be able to pull together a band that you are happy with.
DonovanB
Alan I knew you would have some good advice ?
Alan Ratcliffe wrote
Sounds like you might be best served by taking the helm and putting together your own ensemble from the best players in the bands you play with. Some guys are band loyalists, but if you are a respected player yourself you should be able to pull together a band that you are happy with.
The problem is they are all very different bands. I am slowly grooming myself for session work, building a portfolio so to speak and gearing up to make a name for myself. From reading another thread I need to get in touch with an agent as well in case people need someone to fill in here or there.
that said I am not going to be stupid anymore and I am going to remove the phrase "the problem is" form my vocabulary.
Lethe
Neps wroteI once played in a band, threw a tantrum cause the one guy couldn't get the bass riff down, and then he produced to outplay me on drums.. ??? :-[ So naturally I moved from drums to 'no-band' in a matter of minutes.
har har har! That's funny! ?
I suffer from the same problem as you Don... It's worn me down so far that I just don't care anymore. hahaha. eish.
I've always wanted the democratic approach to a band. I'm starting to think I should stick to my german/ chinese origin and tell people what to do.
DonovanB
Lethe wrote
I've always wanted the democratic approach to a band. I'm starting to think I should stick to my german/ chinese origin and tell people what to do.
I thought of that, although I'm neither German or Chinese. I am of Irish descent so I'm aready at a disadvantage ? I'd probably find myself in the same situation as Neps.
Lethe
lol! ?
Neps
DonovanB wrote
Lethe wrote
I've always wanted the democratic approach to a band. I'm starting to think I should stick to my german/ chinese origin and tell people what to do.
I thought of that, although I'm neither German or Chinese. I am of Irish descent so I'm aready at a disadvantage ? I'd probably find myself in the same situation as Neps.
Well, I'm not too sure about my ancestory... When I tried to read up on it, there were hints of German Shepard, Swiss mountain goat and Belgian Chocolate hidden in the pages... So I decided 'stuff that.. I'll become Chech with a dash of French', never looked back.. :?
But seriously.. I have really worked at being more diplomatic and less sarcastic.. You know you have a problem when a Pastor walks up to you and says 'you know, some people find it really hard to work with you..'
[deleted]
Working with people is always a strain. We're not logical even though we think we are. Also some try to make use of social ettiquette to their advantage and get away with behaving badly because you're expected to look the other way or turn the other cheek.
One thing I've learnt is that I've got a lot to learn. Best just have fun while you're learning.
TomCat
HeHeHe.....I'm having a good chuckle at this.......Band politics is a great challenge.
My wife and me are responsible for the management and coordination of FIVE bands at our church.
As I said in another thread it is something similar to herding cats or nailing jelly to a tree..... ? ?
What we have learned that in the music / ministry / media world it is about 85% attitude and 15% talent/ability.
Our approach to working with people is simply to make them feel more important than us and to start criticisms or suggestions with "Would you mind if I make a suggestion......." If they say yes (and they always do as they to not want to look like an idiot), you now have their permission to proceed. One key is to let them take ownership of your idea.
Two good books to get that will do wonders with working with people:
1. How to Win Friends and Influence People
2. Personality Plus
Hope this helps.....
Lethe
Two items that will help you deal with people:
1. A baseball bat
2. A tazer
(If your name is Clint Eastwood you may use a magnum .44 instead of the bat)
Is there something wrong with my approach?
Squonk
@ Lethe, very good aproach ?
Clint hasn't stopped, If you see his new film "Grand Torino" he is much more scarey as a grumpy old man than he was as Dirty Harry.
Lethe
why thank you. I heard about the movie. I will try watch it ?
He better have lots of guns in this movie , hehehehe
Keira-WitherKay
i agree with what alan said...when he said he failed to move on when he knew he was not with top class muso's or out grew them....
it's not an insult to the band for you to leave .....
since you might know everyone grows musically at their own pace.....
and i remember years ago in my distant past .... that a certain guitarist i worked with for many years out shone me totally.... but now the cards have been reversed and i am the one with more experience and musical knowldge at my fingertips....doing original shows worldwide and he is still doing the cover band circuit ....so the wheel does turn... but i also continue to work my arse off... even now
so the guys you leave now ...might be in a stagnant period tand hey might just grow out of.... but it's useless for you to tread water with them....
normally if i work with with bands i try and make sure i am the least talented musician..... i know it's a wierd approach but it has taught me so much by playing with guys who are better jazz musicians it lifts my game tremendously....
so yeah i get where you coming from.... anyway hope my insight gives another perspective....
peace and light
Keira
[deleted]
normally if i work with with bands i try and make sure i am the least talented musician..... i know it's a wierd approach but it has taught me so much by playing with guys who are better jazz musicians it lifts my game tremendously....
That's a very good tip!
DonovanB
Playing guitar is so much easier than dealing with people.
aubs1
All the advice given is very good.........you say you play in 3 bands, why? Go with the one you get on best with and focus on improvement rather than popularity.
All creative people are normally "sensitive or over-sensitive" and volatile, I know I used to be! I'm a photographer and my wife a graphic designer, and we have our own business, so you can imagine the creative "differences" we have to deal with on a daily basis.....but we have learned to compromise......but that's not always easy.....
There are very few bands that have "stood the test of time" (example, The Rolling Stones, wish I knew what they smoked, must be excellent stuff)).....they all split for exactly the reasons you mention.......creative differences, especially "main man" popularity, etc.
Like Alan says, you need to make a decision, and move on......
