Mic'ing up a live performance of classical/flamenco guitar

Keira-WitherKay

hello all.... has anyone on this site used condenser mic's onstage live, to mic up a nylon string flamenco or classical.....

i always see paco di lucia and vincento amigo and in fact most noted flamenco players always using only an external mic when playing live and only one......

any tips on what is the better mics...i know paco uses a DPA 4011 live..... but they really expensive....

any suggestions for cheaper mic's that deliver a similar result.....

i am totally clueless on this topic of mic's except for a few excursions into google....on this topic so what should i be looking for....

since i would like to experiment with this... i have a good sound with and undersaddle b band pick up and an internal condenser mic mixed ...but was thinking if paco and the big names don't use pickups or internal mic's maybe they onto something i'm missing out on....

also a good condenser mic in front of guitar will pick up some extra percussion and mandatory flamenco clapping without me having to mic up every thing separately as i do now.....
so maybe it will benefit me to go to an external mic....

so help???? and remember we talking live sound NOT studio sound.... so any mic's suggested must have a high feedback tollerance and possibly be directional ...but that i'm not sure of .....

peace and light
keira

TomCat

Hi Keira

This is a tricky one. Currently with you internal mic and pickup you have the flexibility to move around and you sound moves around with you. Once you have an external mic you are limited to the pick up range of that fixed mic.

One also has to look at the mic as being part of the overall sound and equipment you are using, as well as where you place everything in your setup to get sufficient gain before feedback. The most difficult is often smaller venues where the stage is small and you have reflective walls nearby that redirect your PA sound back into microphones very easily and therefore reduces you gain before feedback. You might need to also consider either an automatic feedback reducer or a rack-mount parametric EQ to go with the mic to notch out feedback frequencies without affecting the tone of the guitar too much.

One advantage of a fixed mic is that you can play the dynamics and tone depending on your distance from the mic and which part of the guitar is in front of the mic at any particular time.

My suggestion would be to keep the internal mic going and add the external mic and mix the two together to give you the overall sound. Yo can also blend in a little of the pick up sound as needed for the more direct type effect.

In terms of microphones I would look at the AKG C1000S. This is a very versatile condenser mic and there is available a super cardioid adapter that changes the pick up pattern for increased feedback rejection. Another option is the AKG C3000B (more expensive than the C1000s).

Hope this helps you a bit

http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,759,pid,759,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html

http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,220,pid,220,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html

Keira-WitherKay

thanks Tom, oh and the prob of moving around is not an issue...i sit and play every performance ...so no worries about that ..... and the guitar is in basically one position most of show heheheh so i guess if i go for a mic option that playing it behind my head is now no longer an option heheheheh well i guess unless i turn around heheheh ...damn a solution to every prob ehheheh

thanks i have had my eye on the AKG C1000S cos if i recall from my google exploits it can be used with a battery and not phantom power ... which in my travels is always a bonus ....

but a question if i use a mic .... how large is the "effective" area or the mic's range .... not sure how to word this... but is it like optimum sound in say 1 square metre or half a metre .... and will it pick up say a splash cymbal i have near me (which i want it to) and the tamborine i have on the floor.... i'm sure handclaps would come thru since it;s at same height of guitar but will it be active enough to pick up the percussion thats as you know right close to me.... cos that would be awesome....

thanks again in anticipation of your reply TOM .....

peace and light
Keira

TomCat

Hi Keira

Yes the option of using a bettery on the C100 is a bonus for you and I would seriously consider that mic.

If you want it to pick up more "General ambient sounds" then you need to keep the pick up pattern cardioid and not use the hyper cardioid converter.

The effective area of pick up of the mic will be directly related to how much gain you put on the microphone through the sound system. The amount of gain you will get will vary from venue to venue depending on acoustical conditions and microphone/loudspeaker placement. You will have venues where the whole setup will work great and others that will be almost useless.

I would say that generally you will get the sound of your percussion coming through as you have most of you items fairly close to you. My guess will be that on average items about 0.5 to 1m away should come through....this is guessing though and one will only really know once the setup is tested.

One advantage for you is that you are a dynamic player and your acoustic levels are fairly high.....this will help the microphone pick you up better.

Keira-WitherKay

a question does anyone in jhb area have an AKG C1000S that they could allow me to try use it at a gig .... i would gladly hire it.... (well for a descent rate heheh) i'd like to try this live and see where it goes....

peace and light
Keira

TomCat

Keira WitherKay wrote: a question does anyone in jhb area have an AKG C100S that they could allow me to try use it at a gig .... i would gladly hire it.... (well for a descent rate heheh) i'd like to try this live and see where it goes....

peace and light
Keira

I'll ask around and let you know......

Keira-WitherKay

oK Tom i decided to move on this and spent the morning at Marshall music..trying out their condensers.....

all mic's i tried and A/B'd in the same room with same amp and same guitar so a true test .....the test mic was also moved around into various mic'ing positions .... and once tested and compared was retested later ...and i had a few salesmen offering their ears and input.... so not just my opinion.

and the acid test was to pull the guitar away from the mic and then listen to the natural sound of the instrument then to try mimmick as close as possible that sound through the mic's

i tried the AKG CS1000S .... and it's got a great sparkle and separation onthe upper strings.... but if used alone on the guitar would never sound substantial enough to play without adding in some direct sound .... i was dissappointed i expected a better sound .....

i then tried another AKG the C5 (i think ... not certain of model number...) but it too did not come close...

then i tried an audio technica mic... a small condenser... which blew the AKG's away for a natural guitar sound i did not get the model number.... but the studio gear salesmen swears by em.... however they made the guitar sound good but as soon as i played that percussive style of hitting the body on guitar when i played .... it did not seem to pick up the body noise accurately making it sound duller than it was naturally and softer .... so i reckon it was very directional and anything even 10 cm off the target was lower in volume and impact..... pity cos this was a nice sound on guitar alone.....

then lastly i tried the shure PG81 which surprised everone and sounded best of the bunch for the style i play.... it missed the sparkle on the top of the AKG's which i wish it had..... but it sounded full and loud with no feedback ...and i could play percussion and it was heard loud and clear..... so far this is top of the list ...everyone was amazed..... we all expected one of the AKG's to be.... oh the added advantage apart from it being half the price of the AKG C 1000s
was that it too like the C1000S could run off batteries.... and it was cheap after discount i could get it for R1500

anyway the shure PG81 is still not as crisp as i would like to have ..... but it would be a mic i could do pro gigs with without a worry ..... but i'm trying this mic exercise to find that natural sound....

today was close but NO CIGAR.... i'm gonna keep testing every condenser i can lay my hands on....

so there you have it ....
peace and light
Keira

TomCat

Hey Keira

Glad you stepped out and demo'ed different mics.

As I said earlier, this is a tricky exercise and one mic alone will probably not give you all options.

I am also surprised by the PG81 as it is regarded as a "Budget mic"....just goes to show...... ?

When you look at live performance, the key here is what works for live and having only a condenser mic in front of the guitar will probably not yield the totally desired result. As mentioned earlier you will probably have to add some of your internal condenser and maybe some of the pick up as well. It all depends on what sound you are looking for.

I mic up a fair number of drum kits and the challenges are similar.....Close mic'ing versus distant mic'ing, direct sound, reach of the microphone etc.....great fun........also can be somewhat of a minefield sometimes........and the only way to find out the answers is to experiment. Think of the different sources from your guitar as being different colours and mixing them together creates new tones and hues....

See it as part of the journey to that point we probably will never reach of finding the perfect sound....but it makes for a good trip.... ?

Keira-WitherKay

hello Tom .... here is a video with paco playing live on stage with just one mic .... (he never seems to change his setup...and never lines out his guitar always only one mic....) but the weird thing is the tone is so full and rich and look behind him he has 2 either 15" or 18 " monitors they huge and right by his shoulders and both aim at the mic....so why no feedback....????? can you identify that mic at all??? i know by talk on acoustic flamenco sites online it's said he used DPA mic's ....

i see this and i think that mic'ing is the way to go...cos in my test the other day the mic'd sound was definitely more natural than any line out..... and the condenser mic placed outside ...again is superior to the internal condenser,,, and i loved the idea that just leaning in a tad bosted the signal and pulling back but a few mm would soften the sound but not lose the tone...so mic technique i guess as a good singer uses will come into play and for me that would be awesome i love dynamics in my music.... and with internal pick ups i fiddle with the volume in shows to get that same effect .... so yeah ...i'm still convinced i need to experiment more... but i also want to find more mic's to try... maybe go visit turnkey music soon.... and hope they have some different options to marshall....

so how does paco deal with the feedback ...use only one mic live and have 2 huge speakers behind him ( i guess the old man of flamenco might be losing his hearing ...mmmm not the 1st show i seen with him with huge monitors... ) but my main question is with such a big sound setup how does he use just the external mic and the sound is pristine ...live and not a hint of feedback

of course this conversation is open to everyone...not just Tom....

peace and light
Keira

TomCat

Hey Keira

Amazing Video.

Couple of things here.
1. Monitors behind him......He is playing solo here so there is all probability that none of the guitar is coming through those monitors. They might be there for other performers in the evenings program. I know that classical musicians generally do not like amplified monitoring and prefer to hear acoustically only.

2. The microphone he is using is a high end instrument condenser mic. He has probably gone through the same process you are undertaking now to find the right mic for the application.

There is the AKG C451B, a very good...but expensive instrument microphone which is probably similar to the DPA he is using.
http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,223,pid,223,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html

There is also the Shure SM-81, similar to the AKG and DPA.
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/WiredMicrophones/us_pro_SM81-LC_content

i see this and i think that mic'ing is the way to go...cos in my test the other day the mic'd sound was definitely more natural than any line out..... and the condenser mic placed outside ...again is superior to the internal condenser,,, and i loved the idea that just leaning in a tad bosted the signal and pulling back but a few mm would soften the sound but not lose the tone..

One thing with classical guitar.....it ALWAYS sounds better externally mic'ed than using either direct or internal mic'ing.

I am busy going down the same route at the moment with my brother-in-law with his flamenco playing....

So Keire....the quest continues....... ? ?

Keira-WitherKay

Tom thanks for the help.... yeah it is quite a snakepit tho.... finding mic's heheh but the quest for the "holy grail" of sound will continue....

is your brother in law in jhb? cos if he is more adbvanced than me at flamenco i wouldn't mind maybe asking him to coach /give lessons.... thats if he is not too much of a purist to work with /teach a gypsy guitarist like me... cos i've kinda just absorbed the flamenco style into my world music acoustic playing style to great effect rather than be a serious student of flamenco.....

peace and light
keira

AlanRatcliffe

Looks like a DPA... The 4011 I think: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=187&item=24013. To be honest a bit of overkill for your situation Keira. Completely different, high end live recording/reinforcement market and a RRP of $2,000.

To be honest, personally I wouldn't be looking at mics for your application. Fine if you only play solo and have a high quality PA, no stage monitoring and are not sharing the stage with other musicians. But for a small touring rig, the extra detail and natural response from a mic will mostly be lost anyway and the mic will create other problems. You need to place a single mic to be about a foot away or more to get an accurate representation of the guitar, which means more room noise, crowd noise and leakage from other musos. Big stages are fine, but smaller rooms become a nightmare of room noise, feedback and leakage.

There is a reason pickup systems have taken over from mics for live use. It's a sonic tradeoff, but much more practical for the performing musician.