Fret Guru Needed

G-Man

Hey all, seasons greetings and happy new year.

I have started building another body for my home brewed short scale bass. I made a build thread a few years back if you'd like to see what I did. Nothing fantastic but I had fun with it. Anyway I got tired of the weird and whacky shape I made last time and have based the body (see what I did there?) on a scaled down version of the warmoth gecko 5 string bass. I traced it and scaled it down and changed a few things using inkscape and it looks good I think. I ended up using an ancient plank of sneeze wood. Never seen anyone using it before to build guitars, probably a reason for that , but hey, I like learning my lessons the hard way....

So this Carson fret board that I scavenged for the original build is a bit weird, I'm guessing that the measurements are a bit off. Well, that's not right, I didn't guess, I measured. See the original bridge position was way out when it was still attached to the Carson. I copied its position and when I took it to Slyd to help me finish it and set it up he showed me how off I was. Its been playing great ever since and I've been happy with it, just not a fan of my original shaping attempt hence the new body.

I'm happy to copy my old pickup and bridge positions but thought I'd get some help/ opinions seeing as though I am schlepping with another build I might as well see if I can improve on my last attempt at building the body, so help welcomed. See, I went to the stewmac site and used the fret calculator and my measurements don't fit any of the scale lenghs that I've tried. Is it possible to use the measurements that I took from the fretboard? I realise that double the 12th fret length will get you the scale length but I'm wondering if that's even correct seeing as the other fret spacings are weird.. Here they are in mm from the nut:

1 - 41.5
2 - 82.5
3 - 122
4 - 161.5
5 - 190.5
6 - 223
7 - 254
8 - 283
9 - 310
10 - 336
11 - 360
12 - 383
13 - 410
14 - 425
15 - 444
16 - 462
17 - 479
18 - 506
19 - 511
20 - 525
21 - 549

Any help or insights are most welcome. Is it time to go fretless?

Cheers

V8

I ain't no guru...

But I do have a SS Cort bass (30in scale) to measure up!

Overall scale +/- 760mm (nut to bridge)
1st fret : +/- 42.5
2nd fret +/- 83
3rd fret +/- 121
12th fret +/-380
21st fret +/- 534

I can do some more measurements if it helps - yours do so seem a bit off though. Wish I had that president short scale to measure up, it had different spacings to the Cort (It was slightly shorter scale).

Could be a happy accident to go fretless short scale - sounds like fun!

Gearhead

Fret distances follow quite simple math. Each next fret sits at 94.3874% of the string length of the previous fret, while the bridge saddle is set back from the scale length to compensate for pressing the string down onto the fret. While measuring fret distances, take the distance from the scale length to the fret (bridge side) and you will soon see the light (Excel anyone?).

G-Man

Meron Rigas wrote: Could be a happy accident to go fretless short scale - sounds like fun!

Thanks Meron! Yes it does sound fun indeed! Your measurements really helped me out, and yep this thing is out by a full 6mm by the time you finish measuring everything, it explains alot about why I've been having to bend so many note to get it to sound "right" when I get further down the neck.

Gearhead wrote: Fret distances follow quite simple math. Each next fret sits at 94.3874% of the string length of the previous fret, while the bridge saddle is set back from the scale length to compensate for pressing the string down onto the fret. While measuring fret distances, take the distance from the scale length to the fret (bridge side) and you will soon see the light (Excel anyone?).

Thanks Gearhead, yes although to some of us "simple math" is an oxymoron ?. I actually found an app in the Google Play Store that is the same as the Stewmac calculator, both have confirmed what Meron's measurements did, the fretboard was made hastily and without much consideration for tuning and intonation (or playability lol)

So this long suffering bass has always been a problem child, if I think about it, I could have really made something nice with all the time and effort that I put into reviving this thing... However it is what it is so here is the game plan...

I sat last night with a soldering iron and a set of fret clippers and I de-fretted the neck. The heat makes a huge difference. The problem now is to cover the old fret slots nicely and radius sand the board. I've seen some guys put in 1mm maple shims into the old fret slots and it looks really good, but in my case those fret slots are useless because they're all wrong. I'm wondering if I should saw new slots and then insert some shims (I can rout some left over sneezewood down to 1 - 2 mm and use those as shims, colour should contrast as well) OR will painted lines do the trick (Sounds easier?). Either way the inlays will no longer be centered. I was thinking of maybe doing some crazy neon colour or something as line markers if I go down the painted fret marker road... Hmmm... Then I have seen some guys using superglue as a clear coat, it's supposed to be really strong and really shiny after a few coats and much wet-sanding, anybody have experience with that?

Will take some pics and update as I go if anyone is interested. And here is the original Build/Rebuild thread for context http://www.guitarforum.co.za/setup-mods-and-repair/bass-guitar-rebuild/msg245413/#msg245413

Thanks again gents!

warrenpridgeon

G-Man wrote:
Meron Rigas wrote: Could be a happy accident to go fretless short scale - sounds like fun!
Thanks Meron! Yes it does sound fun indeed! Your measurements really helped me out, and yep this thing is out by a full 6mm by the time you finish measuring everything, it explains alot about why I've been having to bend so many note to get it to sound "right" when I get further down the neck.

Gearhead wrote: Fret distances follow quite simple math. Each next fret sits at 94.3874% of the string length of the previous fret, while the bridge saddle is set back from the scale length to compensate for pressing the string down onto the fret. While measuring fret distances, take the distance from the scale length to the fret (bridge side) and you will soon see the light (Excel anyone?).
Thanks Gearhead, yes although to some of us "simple math" is an oxymoron ?. I actually found an app in the Google Play Store that is the same as the Stewmac calculator, both have confirmed what Meron's measurements did, the fretboard was made hastily and without much consideration for tuning and intonation (or playability lol)

So this long suffering bass has always been a problem child, if I think about it, I could have really made something nice with all the time and effort that I put into reviving this thing... However it is what it is so here is the game plan...

I sat last night with a soldering iron and a set of fret clippers and I de-fretted the neck. The heat makes a huge difference. The problem now is to cover the old fret slots nicely and radius sand the board. I've seen some guys put in 1mm maple shims into the old fret slots and it looks really good, but in my case those fret slots are useless because they're all wrong. I'm wondering if I should saw new ones of if painted lines will doe the trick? Then the inlays will no longer be centered either. I was also thinking of maybe do some crazy neon colour or something as line markers? Then I have seen some guys using superglue as a clear coat, it's supposed to be really strong and really shiny after a few coats and much wet-sanding.

Will take some pics and update as I go if anyone is interested.

Thanks again gents!

Sounds like some fun times ahead. I had a look at your old restore/build thread. Now I want to make stuff again dammit. lol.

G-Man

warrenpridgeon wrote: Sounds like some fun times ahead. I had a look at your old restore/build thread. Now I want to make stuff again dammit. lol.

Yes it is a very catchy disease, this DIY thing. So sorry!! ?

peterleroux

G-Man wrote: Then I have seen some guys using superglue as a clear coat, it's supposed to be really strong and really shiny after a few coats and much wet-sanding, anybody have experience with that?

This is the only bit I can offer input on- I messed around with putting a superglue finish on my two string bass. I would suggest practicing on some scrap first, and masking off very carefully- it sticks like ...glue, and the fumes are pretty unpleasant. But it does penetrate the wood a bit, and gives an awesome glassy, but very thin, finish. do lots of thin coats, and sand slowly, by hand- it burns if you get it too hot.

G-Man

Thanks peterleroux, what an awesome little bass you made! Still playing it much? Funny that piezo was used on there, I have a spare one left over from my electronic drum kit build that I messed around with on my acoustic. Wonder if I could install it anywhere on my bass? ?

Thanks for the tips about the superglue, I will be sure to use it in a ventilated area. Funny I always thought that super glue only dried under pressure or in an airless environment until I saw the videos online of guys using it to seal and polish fretboards. I guess we're never too old to learn something new ?

peterleroux

G-Man wrote: Thanks peterleroux, what an awesome little bass you made! Still playing it much?...

Thanks! it's in pieces at the moment, so I haven't played it in a while. I've got a four-string that I'm building to play instead.

G-Man wrote: ..Funny I always thought that super glue only dried under pressure or in an airless environment until I saw the videos online of guys using it to seal and polish fretboards.

Superglue cures on exposure to moisture, including the moisture in your skin- so it bonds to skin almost instantly (sometimes getting quite hot in the process).

Loctite is the stuff that cures in airless environment- it's what you'd use to lock the screws in a bridge.

Gearhead

If you're willing to go through the trouble of making a new fetboard, I will help you saw the slots - I have a short scale bass template and a fret saw setup

G-Man

Gearhead wrote: If you're willing to go through the trouble of making a new fetboard, I will help you saw the slots - I have a short scale bass template and a fret saw setup

Thanks Gearhead, I'll definitely consider it, only problem is that I'm all the way down in Durban. ☹ It all depends on how well I can fill in these old/incorrect fret slots and then paint / saw & inlay some thin wood strips for fret markers. I'm thinking about using a dark pigment mixed with some fine sanding dust for the filling. But if removing the old fretboard and replacing it with a freshly cut one with the correct spacings sawed into it is the better option then I may have to consider that.

V8

Someone asked me a while ago to defret a bass - I did look into it, didn't think of using superglue as the finish in the fretboard - that be cunning!

I liked the method of staining the fretboard black (using shoe dye) and then expoying the fretboard as a sealer. Looked like a extreme amount of work. And I'm extremely lazy. ?

Perhaps going black on the fretboard, painting on some (white) lines at the correct spots and sealing with superglue ala Peter is the DIY way forward? Or a quick trip to Gearhead (Champion offer!) could be even more fun. I put flat wounds on the SS Cort of mine as a fretless substitute, but thinking about it, the Cort feels like a guitar so my hands might not be overly confused with the fret spacing on a fretless SS. Never see one before, so there's that!

Wizard

Gearhead wrote: Fret distances follow quite simple math. Each next fret sits at 94.3874% of the string length of the previous fret, while the bridge saddle is set back from the scale length to compensate for pressing the string down onto the fret. While measuring fret distances, take the distance from the scale length to the fret (bridge side) and you will soon see the light (Excel anyone?).

Agreed.

A scale has 12 semi-tones (= frets) in an octave.
Since the pitch goes up by a factor of 2 in 12 steps, each step is 2^(1/12) = 1.059463
(which is also the frequency increase from one semitone to the next)
This gives how much each fret is longer than the next going from high to low.

Going the other way each smaller fret is 1 / 2^(1/12) = 0.943874 = 94.3874%

G-Man

Meron Rigas wrote: Perhaps going black on the fretboard, painting on some (white) lines at the correct spots and sealing with superglue ala Peter is the DIY way forward? Or a quick trip to Gearhead (Champion offer!) could be even more fun. I put flat wounds on the SS Cort of mine as a fretless substitute, but thinking about it, the Cort feels like a guitar so my hands might not be overly confused with the fret spacing on a fretless SS. Never see one before, so there's that!

Hmmm...That could be an excellent idea...

Meron Rigas wrote: Or a quick trip to Gearhead (Champion offer!) could be even more fun. I put flat wounds on the SS Cort of mine as a fretless substitute, but thinking about it, the Cort feels like a guitar so my hands might not be overly confused with the fret spacing on a fretless SS. Never see one before, so there's that!

Unfortunately I'm down in Durbs and he's up in JHB. I would probably end up having to courier the neck there and back etc but if it comes to that I really appreciate the offer.

I have decided to do something else a bit different. The neck profile is a little unlevel so I'm thinking of flat sanding it. After some research I found that quite a few fretless bass guys play flat fretboards, but again it comes down to personal preference. That way I can sand out the old fret slots at the same time.

G-Man

I started sanding the fretboard down last night, it has a very purdy grain under all those layers of gunk. Now I'm debating whether to still stain it faux ebony to disguise the old fret slots, or to leave them visible so that the grain can show through and just SG finish it with white painted fret markings...

I found this awesome tool that lets you print out a fret template as a multi page PDF or export it as an SVG for Inkscape editing.

http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/

I printed out a 30" fret board and the measurements match Meron's from his reply. Looks like some bass building is happening this weekend after all! 8)

G-Man

Some random Pics so far

Masking new fret painting positions

Defretted and sanded down

Before the defretting and rough cut body shape

V8

That's a realllly pretty chunk o wood - looks kiaat-esque?

Not convinced by the pointy headstock... ? - Is a reshape on the cards?

.

I've been thinking a explorer shaped SS bass would be a thing...I've played one identical to this - and I have to admit - while it screams 80's hair metal, it is damn comfy to play!