Piezo pickup through acoustic simulator

Norman86

While I'm waiting for it...

I have a piezo equipped guitar, Cort M900, but am wondering how to get the best acoustic type tone from it.
From what i understand, it only has a single output, but it can be used with a stereo cable?!
So i want to split the signal right up top, and have the electric run as normal, but then i have to sort the acoustic tone as well.

How would something like the Boss AC-3 or Zoom A3 work for the piezo? Can it be done to run the piezo tone through the AC3 and straig into a frfr speaker or even a hifi?
The A3 im most sure can do this, but is obviously more expensive, and i cannot find a single second hand one?!

I have tried to find info, but have struggled. Even on Alan's own site, the info is minimal, but thats because its used more for midi than acoustic if i understand correctly?!

Alan, you are propbably the most capable to answer this, but any useful info will help!

I must also say, I have a mind to buy the PRS Piezo Mix / Mag jack assembly and retrofit it to the Cort to have 2 dedicated output jacks, but then i still am not sure how best to get the piezos to sound close to an acoustic tone.

Cheers

AlanRatcliffe

Norman86 wrote: From what i understand, it only has a single output, but it can be used with a stereo cable?!

Yup. You use what's called an insert cable - TRS (stereo) jack to 2 x TS (Mono) jacks.

So i want to split the signal right up top, and have the electric run as normal, but then i have to sort the acoustic tone as well.

Don't underestimate the "acoustic" tone until you try it. Most can happily live with the straight piezo tone into an acoustic amp or FRFR system (monitor or PA). Especially blended with electric tones, where the snappiness of a crystal piezo can help the piezo stand out from the electric. If your M900 has an onboard preamp, you should find the natural acoustic tone has a midrange scoop that is pretty well complimented by most mid-heavy electric sounds. Add in a decent acoustic DI box like a Baggs and you're well covered to get any sound and keep it fairly pure and natural.

How would something like the Boss AC-3 or Zoom A3 work for the piezo?

A3 or similar acoustic modelling is fine. Also worth mentioning are the Yamaha Magicstomp equivalents. Both a little noisy, but nice all-in one solutions.

The AC-3 is an entirely different thing, made to EQ an electric to sound like an acoustic (with limited results, IMO) - on top of a piezo it makes everything unbearably harsh. The Boss equivalent of the A3 is the AD range, which are pretty blah - their acoustic modelling lacks any finesse and just loads a huge amount of overbearing, overly tubby low midrange that ensures your sound is swallowed whole by even the simplest mix.

Kings of the heap are the Fishman Aura range and the Duncan-Turner Mama Bear. Used in moderation they add just enough of a convolution based, natural-sounding body simulation to take your piezo tones to the next level.

I have tried to find info, but have struggled. Even on Alan's own site, the info is minimal, but thats because its used more for midi than acoustic if i understand correctly?!

Both actually. I currently run magnetic + piezo outputs from my Strat and piezo + MIDI from my nylon. My Sanox has all three, but that's in retirement. ? I've been meaning to transplant the Hexpander to my Strat, but haven't had the chance yet.

I must also say, I have a mind to buy the PRS Piezo Mix / Mag jack assembly and retrofit it to the Cort to have 2 dedicated output jacks, but then i still am not sure how best to get the piezos to sound close to an acoustic tone.

You can easily make up a switching box to A/B/Y, but I've found it's overkill. The problem with two dedicated jacks is that you must always run them separate, which is nice to keep additional preamp circuitry out of the magnetic pickup path and keep it passive. However, you lose the ability to run a mono cable with a mix into one amp.

Norman86

Thanks for the info Alan ?

Let me work backwards first...
The PRS Piezo / Mag Mix has 2 outputs, a mono output for the Piezo on its own, then other is a stereo output for the mag / piezo mix.
This would give me the option of using either a single cable or 2 cables.
But I’m thinking of fashioning my own take on that, but can only see how to approach that when I physically have the guitar.

What is nice about the PRS unit though is exactly that, it’s that it’s a single unit that houses both outputs, and a nice battery compartment.
I found a picture describing exactly how the PRS / L.R. Baggs Piezo Transducer System works, but cannot find something on the Cort.
All I can find on the Cort, is the M900’s wiring diagram. But, I’m guessing it works the same, but only for the single stereo output.

http://www.cortguitars.com/downloads/pdfs/M900.pdf

Now, the TRS cable could work, as well as 2 separate mono cables.
I’m only a bedroom hero, so more cables don’t bother me. And I don’t mind making my own snakes from Techflex either ?
Though if I have a TRS cable, I will then use a breakout box to split the signal, and if it needs to be buffered, that also isn’t an issue for me, will just get Benj to make me one of them boxes ?

But, I’m guessing I need the DI box for the piezo anyway?!
The Zoom A3 has it built in which is a bonus. It also has a compensation adjustment for the pickup type, which can also be bypassed, which seems like a useful feature to have.
The magic stomps are discontinued though :/

If I was to get the zoom, how I was considering running it, is to take the normal output through the Boss RC-30’s R channel but out the RC-30 L mono to mix into the normal electric tone, and have the DI output go to a FR amp, but I’m not sure one can use both outputs on the Zoom at once.. still consulting the manual on that, but couldn’t find anything.

Any who, at least now I know to stay away from the Boss AC-3 and even the AD series, I find the AD series too large in the first place to really consider it.
I don’t want to go too hectic either, which is why a DI seems perfect for the acoustic side, and the Zoom seems a little better equipped than the LR Baggs DI?!
I want everything on one board, I don’t want to make a separate board for the “acoustic” side.

Big-G

You may want to take a look at the DTAR system that RoyC is selling in the classifieds? They are very cool for acoustics, and I'm sure could benefit a piezo loaded semi-hollow.

Regards
G!

Norman86

dude, im trying to keep things simple and small ?
seriously though, im still trying to get the guitar shipped from CT ☹
The wait is killing me!

AlanRatcliffe

Norman86 wrote: The PRS Piezo / Mag Mix has 2 outputs, a mono output for the Piezo on its own, then other is a stereo output for the mag / piezo mix.

You'll find the mixed output is mono. Basically you use one or two mono cables.

All I can find on the Cort, is the M900’s wiring diagram. But, I’m guessing it works the same, but only for the single stereo output.

I can't tell from the diagram, as it depends on what they do in the preamp, but I suspect it's similar to the Graph Tech - one jack and the circuit auto-adjusts to either a mono or stereo jack plug. With a TS plug it blends the output, with a TRS it splits to stereo.

I’m only a bedroom hero, so more cables don’t bother me.

You'd be surprised. ?

Though if I have a TRS cable, I will then use a breakout box to split the signal, and if it needs to be buffered, that also isn’t an issue for me, will just get Benj to make me one of them boxes ?

Breakouts are good. The Cort is buffered - both the piezo and the mags.

But, I’m guessing I need the DI box for the piezo anyway?!

Need? No. But a good DI/preamp also lets you shape the tone. Something like the Aura is a good DI + modelling (and comp/tuner on the Spectrum), while the all-in ones are decent DI's and modelling plus a few effects. Horses for courses. If the Aura Spectrum also had the Fishman reverb built in, it would be everything you really need, but it does everything else really well (and has a loop anyway).

If I was to get the zoom, how I was considering running it, is to take the normal output through the Boss RC-30’s R channel but out the RC-30 L mono to mix into the normal electric tone, and have the DI output go to a FR amp, but I’m not sure one can use both outputs on the Zoom at once.. still consulting the manual on that, but couldn’t find anything.

You can.

I don’t want to go too hectic either, which is why a DI seems perfect for the acoustic side, and the Zoom seems a little better equipped than the LR Baggs DI?!

The PADI is hard to beat, quality of sound and EQ-wise (still my go-to DI when I do sound for others), but yeah - no FX.

Norman86

Okay, so using a different browser, a little difficult to quote, but will reply on the appropriate points:

So either 1 mono cable in the stereo jack, or 2 mono cables in the two seperate jacks, or 1 trs cable into the mag/mix jack that will feed into a splitter box?!

Okay, im guessing the M900 has the fishman powerchip onboard.
However, there is a volume and tone for the piezo. Im thinking of changing the pot to volume only, as i cant imagine why one would need a piezo tone control?!

Im going to have a breakout splitter box made anyway, trs input with seperate mono out to mag and piezo, seems like a good idea.

Will look into the various di boxes available, the aura looks great, but is quite pricy, and i cant find second hand units.
Till then, the piezo will sent through my RC-30, with the right channel out hopefully working like i hope to send to a different combo amp. Until that day, im going to try put it through my ipad and into my hifi.

AlanRatcliffe

Norman86 wrote: So either 1 mono cable in the stereo jack, or 2 mono cables in the two seperate jacks, or 1 trs cable into the mag/mix jack that will feed into a splitter box?!

Yes. Note the difference between the Cort/Fishman single TRS output and the double TS output of the PRS though. Fishman gives you mixed with TS cables and split with TRS. PRS gives you the mic with one TS and split with two TS cables.

Okay, im guessing the M900 has the fishman powerchip onboard.

It does.

Im thinking of changing the pot to volume only, as i cant imagine why one would need a piezo tone control?!

Rather have and not need than vice-versa. The Fishman system can be a bit brittle (metal saddles, ceramic piezos), so there is a good chance you may want to back it off a little, depending on the response of your system.

Im going to have a breakout splitter box made anyway, trs input with seperate mono out to mag and piezo, seems like a good idea.

It is. Far easier to find/make TRS and TS cables than insert cables. Plus you could get fancy and fit an A/B/Y switch too.

Norman86

Trs cable here i come!
I think that is going to be much easier in the long run.
Could i just use normal microphone cable as its a buffered out from the guitar?

I really wanted to change the knobs, but i suppose i will then just get the original types back on then and not waste time with only changing 2 knobs.
Also the reason i would have preferred a volume only control, oh well.

The last thing is i wouldnt mind changing the push pull magnetic tone control to a normal tone, and changing the normal three way switch for the 3x3 free way switch. This would be to enable the coil tap for single coil sounds.
not to mention it should neaten the wiring drastically.
But my mission with this is to have the piezo almost completely out of the magnetic wiring, with the 2 sides only really meeting at the jack.
Would this be possible?
After all, they shouldnt really affect each other?

AlanRatcliffe

Norman86 wrote: Could i just use normal microphone cable as its a buffered out from the guitar?

Yes.

But my mission with this is to have the piezo almost completely out of the magnetic wiring, with the 2 sides only really meeting at the jack.
Would this be possible?

Only if you keep the outputs discrete too with no mixed mono signal. That way you can leave the magnetic circuit passive. That's how I generally wire mine. The drawback to this is that you have to take extra care to avoid crosstalk between the High-Z magnetics and Low-Z buffered piezo - specifically at the mag/both/piezo switch and at the jack. Also the High-Z mags then need instrument cable, so no using TRS mic cables. So running the mags passive means you really do need two separate outputs and do any switching offboard.

There are also ground/shielding implications. Basically the grounds must be discrete too to avoid loops. Only one circuit can supply grounding in the guitar, so that one must be connected at all times so the guitar can be shielded.

After all, they shouldnt really affect each other?

I wish. See above.

What it boils down to is unless you have special needs (as I do), it's far simpler and easier to use the circuit as intended, with both sets of pickups running through the preamp/buffer.

Norman86

Oh bugger.. Okay...
Dammit...

Could i then still use the free way switch for the magnetic part and take the push pull pot out?