Attempt to get close to a '59 burst replica

lapdawg · 2014-01-20T22:38:01+00:00

Over the past few years I have built a few amplifiers and made even more cabinets, mostly repro's of Fender & Marshall amps. I done a reasonable amount of research & reading about amps & their construction but... I've always wanted to build some guitars. The closest I've come to building in all my years of playing is making lefty nuts for my string flips. Guitar building, as I am finding out is a different in some very fundamental ways. Most importantly: The amount materials needed, The levels of accuracy needed The amount of work and detail involved The number of tools & jigs needed Impatience is my biggest weakness, so that’s my personal challenge. My fascination with Gibson, especially the 58-59-60 bursts, means that this project can't be anything else. I have done a lot of reading on the construction of the 58-59-60 bursts. This is territory for obsessives & endless debate. I initially started out with idea that I would like to build a few completely accurate ’59s. The first thing I've decided is to build a few of them. 2 reasons for this: If I mess something up, then all my eggs are not in one basket. Secondly, with the jig building, lumber sizes etc. Its just not worth the effort to make one guitar. Through all the reading I have done, I have seen a lot of DIY build threads that just die. I promise I won’t do that. If I mess up, I’ll post it. That ambition of “completely accurate” has changed with a bit of discovery, most importantly: the availability of Brazilian rosewood, Honduras mahogany (Swetenia). The price & ethics that go with this are both a problem for me. The price of repro bridges, switches, fret-board inlays etc. is extreme. I am not sure that a first build will justify that outlay. These decisions need to be made as I go. Pickup rings that are "repro" can easily cost R2 000 with shipping & duties to add. Ridiculous. I've bought plans which I think are mostly accurate. They were supposedly modelled on 3 bursts that the drafter had access to. There are one or 2 details that haven’t 100% added up for me & some info that is missing. I have worked out my adjustments to these and think I have a good idea of what to do. I've bought African mahogany & sapele for the necks. I have been unable to find any info or sources for featherweight African mahogany, but I know it exists. It won’t be playing a part in this build. I have read that some of the bursts had sapele necks. I have ordered 2 pieces of tiger maple – eastern red maple. This was mostly what was used on the bursts. I want to make as much as I can, within reason. I will definitely do all the woodwork. I’m going to make & wind my own pickups. Obviously, tuners, tailpiece, bridge etc should be bought. I think it makes economic sense to make things like hide glue, fish glue & some of the plastic fittings. I've started with making the body templates & will post those later.

lapdawg

Norman86 wrote
G-Man wrote I would love to hear a side by side comparison with one of your beauties and an actual '59, and I'm dying to hear what the LP aficionados will have to report back after having a go.
Something that im sure will have an effect is the age of the wood and electronics.. Then again, im not sure that especially the electronics age plays as much of a role in older instruments, as the sound of those 59's in their original time, is probably what lapdawg was going for?!
(This question sounded better in my head, i hope it transferred correctly?! :-[ )

My speculation: Crispness of the fingerboard, resonance of the mahogany must have an influence. My second instrument in this build has finger board mad from a scrap piece that sold to me as Madagascan Rosewood. It definitely isn't. I think it might be Cocobolo. The wood is dark brown with orange/brown marbled grain. This fingerboard (unmounted) had an amazing resonance to it - completely different to the Indian rosewood. When I "knock" this instrument, it has a much brighter sound to it. The fingerboard is the only obvious difference to the other two.

Surely: The PAF's are the core of this issue. There are a lot of beliefs out there about how different factors influence the how a PAF sound. I have read many strong & varied opinions. I suspect that we over complicate what the real basics are. I have tried out some ideas & each PUP I make has a record of the things & properties that went into each. i.e. winding method, number of winds, ohm-age etc. etc. Maybe I'll learn someting.

Hard to know: "The age of the wood & instrument influence the tone." How could anyone could know for sure. I have read so many people say that tone improves with age. Never seen anyone argue the opposite. ...but there is so a lot of human condition involved here. I can believe that the feel of something changes completely with age and character. i.e. there is something intrinsically different about something that is old and has "Mojo", but is that's not an objective sound test. Maybe its more about our own sense of mortality than actual change of tone with aging. How could we really know?
I always think of what Clapton said - [not verbatim] : When you put an LP through a Marshall stack & crank it, you get this amazing sound that was not intended by the manufacturers. i.e. the holy grail sound was more flook, less science -at least to start with.

Attila

"the holy grail sound was more flook, less science -at least to start with." I will agree with that statement

Everything to do with sound and instruments is subjective to a plethora of conditions - ultimately in the ear of the beholder

G-Man

lapdawg wrote
Norman86 wrote
G-Man wrote I would love to hear a side by side comparison with one of your beauties and an actual '59, and I'm dying to hear what the LP aficionados will have to report back after having a go.
Something that im sure will have an effect is the age of the wood and electronics.. Then again, im not sure that especially the electronics age plays as much of a role in older instruments, as the sound of those 59's in their original time, is probably what lapdawg was going for?!
(This question sounded better in my head, i hope it transferred correctly?! :-[ )
My speculation: Crispness of the fingerboard, resonance of the mahogany must have an influence. My second instrument in this build has finger board mad from a scrap piece that sold to me as Madagascan Rosewood. It definitely isn't. I think it might be Cocobolo. The wood is dark brown with orange/brown marbled grain. This fingerboard (unmounted) had an amazing resonance to it - completely different to the Indian rosewood. When I "knock" this instrument, it has a much brighter sound to it. The fingerboard is the only obvious difference to the other two.

Surely: The PAF's are the core of this issue. There are a lot of beliefs out there about how different factors influence the how a PAF sound. I have read many strong & varied opinions. I suspect that we over complicate what the real basics are. I have tried out some ideas & each PUP I make has a record of the things & properties that went into each. i.e. winding method, number of winds, ohm-age etc. etc. Maybe I'll learn someting.

Hard to know: "The age of the wood & instrument influence the tone." How could anyone could know for sure. I have read so many people say that tone improves with age. Never seen anyone argue the opposite. ...but there is so a lot of human condition involved here. I can believe that the feel of something changes completely with age and character. i.e. there is something intrinsically different about something that is old and has "Mojo", but is that's not an objective sound test. Maybe its more about our own sense of mortality than actual change of tone with aging. How could we really know?
I always think of what Clapton said - [not verbatim] : When you put an LP through a Marshall stack & crank it, you get this amazing sound that was not intended by the manufacturers. i.e. the holy grail sound was more flook, less science -at least to start with.

Reminds me of the stradivarius test that they did http://m.thestrad.com/latest/news/blind-tested-soloists-unable-to-tell-stradivarius-violins-from-modern-instruments

nicovlogg

G-Man wrote Reminds me of the stradivarius test that they did http://m.thestrad.com/latest/news/blind-tested-soloists-unable-to-tell-stradivarius-violins-from-modern-instruments

This is the core of the thing. Some instruments sound better than others - regardless of age. That said, we like old stuff 8)

V8

Well, I was one of the lucky ones to be chilling at GJ when lapdawg popped into today with his '59 Replica and (lovely) self build valve amp - I even managed to sneak in there and get a few mins playing time... 8)

I'm no LP afficinado - but it felt real good and sounded quite kick-ass through his amp. Lapdawg will have to inform us exactly what spec this amp is - did cleans, dirt and grunt with real clarity - verrrry nice.

But the star of the show was the LP - felt & sounded better than the studio currently at GJ, easily comparable to the custom that was there a while ago. The neck is somewhat clubby but comfortable in way that I can't explain - it just fits into your hand. Seated it was a very, very comfy guitar to play, really balances nicely on the leg and fits under the arm.

Sound wise, best we get the the LP experts in...I thought the pup's were authetic to PAF design. Clear (no muddiness), some bite and loads of grunt. Cleaned up when you rolled off a bit of vol and warmed up when you rolled off a bit of tone. I'd say they compared well to a PRS (w/Suhr SSV & Bare Knuckle mule PAF's) I tried recently - imho, the PRS has a bit more stratty glass to it, while the '59 LP felt like it had a little more warmth & grunt.

Lapdawg has left amp + guit at GJ for a lit' bit so he's really keen for the experts to try it out and get some feedback for his next builds.

Since it didn't happen unless there's a pic, here's Ollie giving it a run :

singemonkey

Congrats Lapdawg. A fantastic bit of work. So pleased that you did this. The results look stunning, and very true to the originals. I'm really looking forward to playing these.

I vote everyone hits Lapdawg with thanks for this amazing thread.

lapdawg

singemonkey wrote Congrats Lapdawg. A fantastic bit of work. So pleased that you did this. The results look stunning, and very true to the originals. I'm really looking forward to playing these.

I vote everyone hits Lapdawg with thanks for this amazing thread.

Thanks - Pleeeeeease will EZ & yourself make your way to the store & do an assessment.

Also: I'm hoping to have some sound clips ready soon.

singemonkey

lapdawg wrote
singemonkey wrote Congrats Lapdawg. A fantastic bit of work. So pleased that you did this. The results look stunning, and very true to the originals. I'm really looking forward to playing these.

I vote everyone hits Lapdawg with thanks for this amazing thread.
Thanks - Pleeeeeease will EZ & yourself make your way to the store & do an assessment.

Also: I'm hoping to have some sound clips ready soon.

Yeah. Just come back from a trip. EZ and I are already making schemes.

Chabenda

singemonkey wrote Congrats Lapdawg. A fantastic bit of work. So pleased that you did this. The results look stunning, and very true to the originals. I'm really looking forward to playing these.

I vote everyone hits Lapdawg with thanks for this amazing thread.

+1 Amen!

singemonkey

Also +1 on good to hear from Vic again.

deefstes

ez wrote
singemonkey wrote
lapdawg wrote I'm definitely signing up EZ & yourself to test drive these.
...Yay!

*wells up at the thought*

☹
:goodtimes: :goodtimes: :goodtimes:

Ahem! Can you two get on with it already? Also, us Vaalies who can't pop in to GJ for a quickie are going to have to insist on some sound clips.

Stoffeltoo

deefstes wrote
ez wrote
singemonkey wrote
lapdawg wrote I'm definitely signing up EZ & yourself to test drive these.
...Yay!

*wells up at the thought*

☹
:goodtimes: :goodtimes: :goodtimes:
Ahem! Can you two get on with it already? Also, us Vaalies who can't pop in to GJ for a quickie are going to have to insist on some sound clips.

and a video or two, studio mixed off course.

Congrats Lapdawg. You the man, Man!
Aag please start a new thread with a FENDER?

chris77

:goodtimes: Wow. Well done....

I love the back grain nearly as much as the maple's flames, which is a whole lot let me tell you.... ? Beautiful.

singemonkey

Stoffeltoo wrote Congrats Lapdawg. You the man, Man!
Aag please start a new thread with a FENDER?

A plank with a neck screwed on? Be a bit of a step down dontchathink? ?

Chabenda

singemonkey wrote
Stoffeltoo wrote Congrats Lapdawg. You the man, Man!
Aag please start a new thread with a FENDER?
A plank with a neck screwed on? Be a bit of a step down dontchathink? ?

Rather screwed on than glued on!! ?

AlanRatcliffe

singemonkey wrote A plank with a neck screwed on? Be a bit of a step down dontchathink? ?

lapdawg

singemonkey wrote
Stoffeltoo wrote Congrats Lapdawg. You the man, Man!
Aag please start a new thread with a FENDER?
A plank with a neck screwed on? Be a bit of a step down dontchathink? ?

Yes - It is a plank with a neck screwed on. To me that's the beauty of tele's - simple, direct & cuts straight through. It sounds how it is.
I should be finished this build soon and I do want build more. I'll spend some putting together some tools I need then it'll probably be a tele (of sorts) or my version of the LP.
Whilst building & researching these LP's I've become very aware of some major design flaws in the LP, as well as things I would do differently. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot I also really like - that's why I'm really tempted to by the latter.

G-Man

So, any more reviews from people fortunate enough to play one of these beauts? Dying to hear... ?

lapdawg

G-Man wrote So, any more reviews from people fortunate enough to play one of these beauts? Dying to hear... ?

I spoke to quite a few players in the shop and saw it played by quite a few people. The feedback was very positive. Almost everyone said they preferred it to the new G****ns. I was concerned that the neck would be too fat for a lot of tastes but everyone said they really like the fat neck. It was after all to exact '59 spec.
Singemonkey & EZ played it. I get detailed feedback from Singemonkey via PM. EZ picked up that there was a wiring issue. It happened when I replaced a stiff pot in a hurry. Mark Buchannan really liked it but said that the bridge PUP was too soft & pointed out some fret buzz. I brought it home re-dressed the frets, fixed the wiring, sharpened the corners where the pickguard sat against the PUP rings, replaced an A5 PUP magnet that was under-gaussed and took it back.

I think I read & learned quite a bit about setup over those 2 days that I had it on the bench. I couldn't fault the the setup when it when back. It was playing really well & sounded great.

Singe, EZ? Feedback? Can I publish your PM's? Not sure if you got to see it again.

I am speaking about this in past tense because its no longer in the store... It wasn't my initial intention to put it up but my arm was twisted. The income will all go back into tools - which I really need to step this up a gear. My focus is currently on building a few necessary tools, but I will complete the second one in a month or so & post pics of that. I think it may be a nicer instrument. There is one issue - I am going to have to replace the truss rod as I slightly stripped the thread with a metric washer in front of the truss nut. The washer scraped the thread & it won't be reliable. I will put up some pictures of that.

I think all in all, the feedback exceeded what I thought I could pull off, so I am really happy. I am also looking forward to a few other projects and will share those in some form or other.

ezietsman

Oh Boo. I wanted to try it again but didn't know it was in the shop :'( Anyway, feel free to publish what I said.

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