The Name on the HEADSTOCK

vic · 2013-01-02T16:25:57+00:00

We often see "you pay extra for the name on the headstock"...or..."I don't care what's on the headstock"...or...etc. How important is that "name on the headstock" when you buy a guitar (or a keyboard, or a piano, or...) ? ???

Chabenda

This an evil topic indeed!! I would agree that the Japanese and Mexican instruments are of a very high quality. I think that perhaps, for me at least, it is the Aura that is diluted but then that is because when I started playing the only decent instruments available were sixties Fenders and Gibsons and I am still stuck in a time warp and still playing them. My circumstances are quite different to the majority on the forum and often my opinions don't count for much! Estou fora de prazo!
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Says who...? ? ?
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Thank you Vic but you are too kind! I am like Stig of the Dump, there are no music shops here and only a couple of us who play so am still back in the nineties (where I was back in the seventies)!

The name on the head stock issue is simple - EG. Fender have been trying to recapture the magic that their instruments had up until 1965. Therefore if the instrument is post 1965 and is one of these attempts, regardless of the manufacturer, then the name on the head stock is irrelevant and the instrument should be judged on it's individual qualities. If you must have Fender on the head stock then you should accept that this is an attempt to recreate(or improve upon) a classic, with the added bonus that the manufacturer has bought the privilege to include the original name. In Fender's case I don't think that they have brought out anything new and successful since 1965.

I think that this probably applies to Gibson the Ball and Claw furniture manufacturers -and others.

Bob-Dubery

Vic wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
Vic wrote Strictly speaking 70's is not vintage. The "definition" for guitars is a bit fuzzy, but I've seen mentioning of "up to the mid 60's"...??. Agree...it's not what I would call aesthetically pleasing hey ? ?
It depends on the brand, I think. For Fender it's prior to CBS taking over (hence the more accurate term "Pre-CBS"). For Martin there seem to be two cut offs, with different implications. One is the date in the early 70s when they switched from Brazilian to Indian rosewood. The other is WW2 - collectors like to talk about "pre-war" Martins, and many limited editions are built to "pre-war" specs. IIRC this also marked the time at which Adirondack spruce, Martin's then wood of choice for tops, became severely depleted and as lots of it was used for making planes.
+1 as indicated there're a few other factors which come into play...and which certainly have an affect on value of a particular model or brand.

Having famous rock type people play a particular model is good. If you look at Gibson and Epiphone (when Epiphone was a brand in it's own right rather than Gibson's budget line), the arch tops haven't risen in value nearly as much as the solid-bodies.

Bob-Dubery

Chabenda wrote The name on the head stock issue is simple - EG. Fender have been trying to recapture the magic that their instruments had up until 1965. Therefore if the instrument is post 1965 and is one of these attempts, regardless of the manufacturer, then the name on the head stock is irrelevant and the instrument should be judged on it's individual qualities. If you must have Fender on the head stock then you should accept that this is an attempt to recreate(or improve upon) a classic, with the added bonus that the manufacturer has bought the privilege to include the original name. In Fender's case I don't think that they have brought out anything new and successful since 1965.

Contemporary MIA Fenders are pretty good, and some of the limited edition models deserve to be spoken of as "superb" (and like words).

I've played some pre-65 Strats that haven't been very good. QC was so variable back then. The best are very good, but it's not a universal thing (Clapton used bits from three Strats to get Blackie). Modern guitar manufacture is much more consistent.

Ditto Martins. I've played some old Martins that really don't play that well (usually they sound OK). And they can be not so lekker to own in this day and age because they lack things such as adjustable truss rods.

The only thing we can be sure of with an old guitar is that it's old.

AlanRatcliffe

Agreed. I've owned a few 60's Strats and they varied widely - bad to indifferent. Compared to what Fender was throwing together in the '70s and early '80s they were great (hence the reputation) and when you find a good one it is sublime, but the modern production instruments are far more consistently good than the vintage ones.

BassBoy

Stop worrying about what`s on the headstock and just learn to play your instrument! Too many muso`s debating about which gear is best or "this is better than that". Just get it set up properly and play the dang thing! I`ve heard and played with really good muso`s using "cheap" gear and they sounded good, also the opposite with not-so-good muso`s making really expensive gear sound crappy.

Awaiting the flames.....

Keira-WitherKay

Having famous rock type people play a particular model is good. If you look at Gibson and Epiphone (when Epiphone was a brand in it's own right rather than Gibson's budget line), the arch tops haven't risen in value nearly as much as the solid-bodies.

maybe i'm misunderstanding the context .... So stand coerrected if it is .....

But archtops are generally more expensive than solid bodies .... ? new or vintage ....ok sure that rare 59 goldtop is in the 6 figures or 57 strat is rare and the exception but 2nd hand vintage gibson archtops are in thee 5 - 7 k US dollar range even more for rarer ones .... Freddie green of count basie fames stromberg archtop is on sale at gruhns , if i recall for a mere 90k us dollars ?and epiphone vintage archtops are in th 3:5 k and up us dollar mark and even google what a new gibson L 5 costs .... ... Don't forget the L5 is carved solid top and the es 175's were the budget models and laminated but still sell for 3- 4 k us dollars new ... And best price for a new es 335 in jhb is about 28k sa rands ..... After discount I've seen new and even older les pauls and strats selling for less ....

Bob-Dubery

BassBoy wrote Stop worrying about what`s on the headstock and just learn to play your instrument! Too many muso`s debating about which gear is best or "this is better than that". Just get it set up properly and play the dang thing! I`ve heard and played with really good muso`s using "cheap" gear and they sounded good, also the opposite with not-so-good muso`s making really expensive gear sound crappy.

Because it DOES make a difference. We've already talked about SRV and his strats. Why didn't he just get some $200 yamahas, get those set up and go on the road with them? Why does Loudon Wainwright (not a great player, but that's not the point) use a Martin when he could just go down to his friendly neighbourhood store and buy a Takamine? Why does Tony Cox stick to a Smoothtalker (which he did pay for) when he could use any number of other brands? Why does Elvis Costello play Fenders (and did before the signature model Jazzmaster came out) when he could just get some Ibanii or Arias or whatever?

Because whilst guitars don't boost your talent, they are not all equal. A good guitar won't make you a better player, but it may help you to better realise your skills and ideas.

Awaiting the flames.....

Just disagreement ?

guidothepimmp

Human psyche is a strange thing.

For some folks having the name on the headstock will even make the instrument sound better. To them that is

Same principle applies across the board. Just ask the apple and Samsung fan boys in some other thread.

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote
Having famous rock type people play a particular model is good. If you look at Gibson and Epiphone (when Epiphone was a brand in it's own right rather than Gibson's budget line), the arch tops haven't risen in value nearly as much as the solid-bodies.
maybe i'm misunderstanding the context .... So stand coerrected if it is .....

What I'm saying is that vintage arch tops haven't risen in price nearly as much as solid body electric and even flat top acoustics.

I just looked at George Gruhn's web site for some examples.

1937 D'Angelico - $15000 (and it's in good condition)
1956 Gibson Switchmaster - $6900
1947 Epiphone Triumph $3000 (refretted but not refinished and in good shape)
1937 Gibson ES150 - $6500

You do a bit better with ES335 type instruments, but generally arch tops don't attract the sort of prices that we're used to seeing for old Les Pauls, D28s and strats.

vic

X-rated Bob wrote
BassBoy wrote Stop worrying about what`s on the headstock and just learn to play your instrument! Too many muso`s debating about which gear is best or "this is better than that". Just get it set up properly and play the dang thing! I`ve heard and played with really good muso`s using "cheap" gear and they sounded good, also the opposite with not-so-good muso`s making really expensive gear sound crappy.
Because it DOES make a difference. We've already talked about SRV and his strats. Why didn't he just get some $200 yamahas, get those set up and go on the road with them? Why does Loudon Wainwright (not a great player, but that's not the point) use a Martin when he could just go down to his friendly neighbourhood store and buy a Takamine? Why does Tony Cox stick to a Smoothtalker (which he did pay for) when he could use any number of other brands? Why does Elvis Costello play Fenders (and did before the signature model Jazzmaster came out) when he could just get some Ibanii or Arias or whatever?

Because whilst guitars don't boost your talent, they are not all equal. A good guitar won't make you a better player, but it may help you to better realise your skills and ideas.

Awaiting the flames.....
Just disagreement ?

Those of us who started out on crappy stuff will testify to this...A good guitar certainly invites one to play it more often...and should you be able to get the tone of your "hero" (as a bonus) out of it, so much better. ?

Tokai-SA

X-rated Bob wrote
BassBoy wrote Stop worrying about what`s on the headstock and just learn to play your instrument! Too many muso`s debating about which gear is best or "this is better than that". Just get it set up properly and play the dang thing! I`ve heard and played with really good muso`s using "cheap" gear and they sounded good, also the opposite with not-so-good muso`s making really expensive gear sound crappy.
Because it DOES make a difference. We've already talked about SRV and his strats. Why didn't he just get some $200 yamahas, get those set up and go on the road with them? Why does Loudon Wainwright (not a great player, but that's not the point) use a Martin when he could just go down to his friendly neighbourhood store and buy a Takamine? Why does Tony Cox stick to a Smoothtalker (which he did pay for) when he could use any number of other brands? Why does Elvis Costello play Fenders (and did before the signature model Jazzmaster came out) when he could just get some Ibanii or Arias or whatever?

Because whilst guitars don't boost your talent, they are not all equal. A good guitar won't make you a better player, but it may help you to better realise your skills and ideas.

Awaiting the flames.....
Just disagreement ?

Why does George Benson play an Ibanez?
Why does Andy Timmons play an Ibanez?
Why does Joe Satriani play an Ibanez?
Why does Steve Vai play an Ibanez?

I'll tell you why, because top of the range made in Japan Ibanez guitars are as good and better than anything made in the USA.

vic

Tokai SA wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
BassBoy wrote Stop worrying about what`s on the headstock and just learn to play your instrument! Too many muso`s debating about which gear is best or "this is better than that". Just get it set up properly and play the dang thing! I`ve heard and played with really good muso`s using "cheap" gear and they sounded good, also the opposite with not-so-good muso`s making really expensive gear sound crappy.
Because it DOES make a difference. We've already talked about SRV and his strats. Why didn't he just get some $200 yamahas, get those set up and go on the road with them? Why does Loudon Wainwright (not a great player, but that's not the point) use a Martin when he could just go down to his friendly neighbourhood store and buy a Takamine? Why does Tony Cox stick to a Smoothtalker (which he did pay for) when he could use any number of other brands? Why does Elvis Costello play Fenders (and did before the signature model Jazzmaster came out) when he could just get some Ibanii or Arias or whatever?

Because whilst guitars don't boost your talent, they are not all equal. A good guitar won't make you a better player, but it may help you to better realise your skills and ideas.

Awaiting the flames.....
Just disagreement ?
Why does George Benson play an Ibanez?
Why does Andy Timmons play an Ibanez?
Why does Joe Satriani play an Ibanez?
Why does Steve Vai play an Ibanez?

I'll tell you why, because top of the range made in Japan Ibanez guitars are as good and better than anything made in the USA.

GB is very well associated with Ibanez eg.GB30TH, GB200, GB15, GB10...so not just any ol' Ibanez. However he also plays/played D'Angelico,Guild guitars (in the past) and a Gibson L-5....and maybe others too ?

Please note that the topic is really about what's on the headstock, and how it influences buyers or players, and not about the quality aspects of the different brands.

Reinhard

Tokai SA wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
BassBoy wrote Stop worrying about what`s on the headstock and just learn to play your instrument! Too many muso`s debating about which gear is best or "this is better than that". Just get it set up properly and play the dang thing! I`ve heard and played with really good muso`s using "cheap" gear and they sounded good, also the opposite with not-so-good muso`s making really expensive gear sound crappy.
Because it DOES make a difference. We've already talked about SRV and his strats. Why didn't he just get some $200 yamahas, get those set up and go on the road with them? Why does Loudon Wainwright (not a great player, but that's not the point) use a Martin when he could just go down to his friendly neighbourhood store and buy a Takamine? Why does Tony Cox stick to a Smoothtalker (which he did pay for) when he could use any number of other brands? Why does Elvis Costello play Fenders (and did before the signature model Jazzmaster came out) when he could just get some Ibanii or Arias or whatever?

Because whilst guitars don't boost your talent, they are not all equal. A good guitar won't make you a better player, but it may help you to better realise your skills and ideas.

Awaiting the flames.....
Just disagreement ?
Why does George Benson play an Ibanez?
Why does Andy Timmons play an Ibanez?
Why does Joe Satriani play an Ibanez?
Why does Steve Vai play an Ibanez?

I'll tell you why, because top of the range made in Japan Ibanez guitars are as good and better than anything made in the USA.

I'm sorry, but I can pick any one of the big USA brands and ramble through a bunch of famous guitarists who use them. If it's good enough for them...?

Tokai-SA

I know the threads about "what's on the headstock".

Read Bob's post, he said, "Why does Elvis Costello play Fenders (and did before the signature model Jazzmaster came out) when he could just get some Ibanii or Arias or whatever?"

Was Bob insinuating that Ibanez is a guitar that should be rated below Fender, and therefore not as desirable a headstock name as Fender?
So, I pointed out that many of the worlds greatest guitarists play Ibanez, because Ibanez is a great name to have on a Headstock.

vic

Tokai SA wrote I know the threads about "what's on the headstock".

Read Bob's post, he said, "Why does Elvis Costello play Fenders (and did before the signature model Jazzmaster came out) when he could just get some Ibanii or Arias or whatever?"

Was Bob insinuating that Ibanez is a guitar that should be rated below Fender, and therefore not as desirable a headstock name as Fender?
So, I pointed out that many of the worlds greatest guitarists play Ibanez, because Ibanez is a great name to have on a Headstock.

Certainly....and many buyers and players are indeed attracted to the brand. I guess Bob was referring to the cheaper or budget solid body models ?

Bob-Dubery

Tokai SA wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
BassBoy wrote Stop worrying about what`s on the headstock and just learn to play your instrument! Too many muso`s debating about which gear is best or "this is better than that". Just get it set up properly and play the dang thing! I`ve heard and played with really good muso`s using "cheap" gear and they sounded good, also the opposite with not-so-good muso`s making really expensive gear sound crappy.
Because it DOES make a difference. We've already talked about SRV and his strats. Why didn't he just get some $200 yamahas, get those set up and go on the road with them? Why does Loudon Wainwright (not a great player, but that's not the point) use a Martin when he could just go down to his friendly neighbourhood store and buy a Takamine? Why does Tony Cox stick to a Smoothtalker (which he did pay for) when he could use any number of other brands? Why does Elvis Costello play Fenders (and did before the signature model Jazzmaster came out) when he could just get some Ibanii or Arias or whatever?

Because whilst guitars don't boost your talent, they are not all equal. A good guitar won't make you a better player, but it may help you to better realise your skills and ideas.

Awaiting the flames.....
Just disagreement ?
Why does George Benson play an Ibanez?
Why does Andy Timmons play an Ibanez?
Why does Joe Satriani play an Ibanez?
Why does Steve Vai play an Ibanez?

I'll tell you why, because top of the range made in Japan Ibanez guitars are as good and better than anything made in the USA.

Lol. I slipped up on the I... word, though I don't think any of those deals amount to playing an off-the-shelf instrument such as you or I could buy, nor that they had to pay very much for those instruments. I've tried to stick to artists who bought their instruments on the way up before companies offering endorsements beat a path to their door (or who never got big enough to be appealing to be appealing to a big manufacturer).

vic

Sebber wrote I'm a gear snob, plain and simple. Fender Stratocaster electrics, Taylor acoustics, Mesa/Boogie amplification. If it's not one of those three, it's for someone else.

I wouldn't say your preference for these brands is snobbery ?

Norman86

i love the fender brand..
i love the fender shapes..

what i hate about fender are the comparitive prices in SA.
and how with all the competitions on fb or online, we get snubbed here in SA.
yes, i understand about economics and yadda yadda yadda..
but still.
i will always love Fender, especially the custom shop models. i just feel with the global economy, they should stop their restrictions!

Norman86

X-rated Bob wrote Lol. I slipped up on the I... word, though I don't think any of those deals amount to playing an off-the-shelf instrument such as you or I could buy, nor that they had to pay very much for those instruments. I've tried to stick to artists who bought their instruments on the way up before companies offering endorsements beat a path to their door (or who never got big enough to be appealing to be appealing to a big manufacturer).

this is exactly what i alluded to in the previous pages..
bar one or two artists who might use bog standard models, i think that most artists have some slightly off beat variation on the models we see being played!
very few use off the shelf models imo.

Tokai-SA

Norman86 wrote
i will always love Fender, especially the custom shop models. i just feel with the global economy, they should stop their restrictions!

What restrictions...on Custom shop models?

EDIT:
Oh, you mean restrictions on competitions?

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