Amplification

singemonkey

Anyone have any thoughts on what it takes to get a good vocal sound in the mix? I'm starting to think it's weird that guitar players spend all that time fussing about tone, while the vocals - the first thing non-musicians connect to - we're just, "leave it to the sound guy."

But we all know that a fair proportion of sound guys just don't give any kind of f*&^, right? And sometimes there's no sound guy.

I'm really liking the features offered by the TC Electronic units (where you tell the sound guy to just zero everything and let the unit do the 'verb, EQ, delay, etc.). But the other thing is, if you're setting your vocal yourself, what does it need to not have that boomy, lost in the mix, convention-key-note-address sound?

vic

Well I would state the obvious for starters

1.A good and powerful PA amp .....even for smaller venues and.... good quality microphones
2.Four high quality speakers/ cabs/columns elevated to a suitable height to give that big umbrella of sound
3.Stage monitor/s

The tone settings depend on the voice/s or -colour of the vocalist/s in the band. Since voices differ, some may need more mids/bass and others may need more treble. Be careful not to use too much reverb or delay.

Must say I also like the idea of the new voice processors....especially the double track feature.

singemonkey

Yeah. Me too. Especially for bands with vocalists whose voices are a little under-powered.

Shouldn't you be cutting out the bass largely on the vocal to avoid it clashing with the low end instruments, bass, kick-drum, or am I misunderstanding?

AlanRatcliffe

Good midrange. Most cheaper PAs trade off good mid and high quality for throw, dispersion and volume. Most engineers tend to put too much reverb on vox too. I've found that putting the FX in the hands of the vocalist is usually a bad idea. ? They get drunk on the power... ?

Decent mic, decent PA and minimal EQ always works best for me. Always use the highpass/low cut filters on the desk for vocals. A compressor is actually the first must-have effect for live vocals IMO.

singemonkey

Are compressors built into the desks? Is the high-pass filter just like a button? Or do you have to manually dial in the EQ there?

I hear you about vocalists getting drunk on the power (is there nothing we won't get drunk on? ? ) but that's also coming from someone like you who really knows sound. Many to most sound guys don't appear to pay enough attention to get a halfway decent live mix.

vic

singemonkey wrote: Yeah. Me too. Especially for bands with vocalists whose voices are a little under-powered.

Shouldn't you be cutting out the bass largely on the vocal to avoid it clashing with the low end instruments, bass, kick-drum, or am I misunderstanding?

Here it would depend I think on the type of song your vocalist is doing at the time.....for a "Tom Jones-type" vocal you'd need a crispy tone with good (but not booming) bass. Must say the Shure SM 58 is good at that. For a "Mick Jagger-type" performance, more mids and treble I guess. I like a good frequency spectrum.... and you can get that with the EQ tool of a good powered mixer. You need that crispy bass-mid-treble mix (supported by high quality PA speakers) if your band does harmonies. But again, imho, avoid too much reverb/delay. These are "tone" "consumers" in my experience........For the bluesy stuff (your fav Singe ?) a "dry" vocal tone will give good results....?
But for rockabilly/old style rock 'n roll type vocals, I prefer a good delay for the effect with plenty of trebs.

EDIT: Forgot to say...rather cut down on the volume of the low end instruments....a too loud kick-drum or bass can be quite irritating to the ears .

AlanRatcliffe

singemonkey wrote: Are compressors built into the desks?

Occasionally, but not often on affordable desks. Some of the Yamaha desks have simple one-knob comps and standalone channel strips almost always have bigger, better ones. Most commonly an external unit used on the channel inserts.

Is the high-pass filter just like a button? Or do you have to manually dial in the EQ there?

Usually a button on the desk (might be marked "hipass filter", "low-cut" or just have a EQ slope and a frequency). Better desks will have a frequency range knob too. Should be the first step in any mix to apply to everything but the bass and kick drum - clears up the clarity of the system no end and tightens the bass.

Many to most sound guys don't appear to pay enough attention to get a halfway decent live mix.

The "set it and forget it" types. I know 'em. A good engineer never stops tweaking and is part of the band IMO - even if it's only for the show. He's also the guy who will ask for a set list and, if it's original material, will ask questions and make notes. ?

Funny thing is, I don't consider myself a live sound guy (there's no "undo" button live ☹), but I keep on getting told that I do a good job and I think that's just because I actually listen (and partly because so many guys do such a bad job that it's easy to look good in comparison). It does start and end with the artists though - I find the good ones are easy to mix, regardless of how complex the setup.

Riaan-Combrink

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
singemonkey wrote: Are compressors built into the desks?
Occasionally, but not often on affordable desks. Some of the Yamaha desks have simple one-knob comps and standalone channel strips almost always have bigger, better ones. Most commonly an external unit used on the channel inserts.

Is the high-pass filter just like a button? Or do you have to manually dial in the EQ there?
Usually a button on the desk (might be marked "hipass filter", "low-cut" or just have a EQ slope and a frequency). Better desks will have a frequency range knob too. Should be the first step in any mix to apply to everything but the bass and kick drum - clears up the clarity of the system no end and tightens the bass.

I use this desk - you'll see the one-button compressor (yelow) on the vox channels. I find them pretty decent and easy to use!

The low-cut filter is the button just below the gain. Always off for vox.

@ Alan: should one cut the low for your guitar channel as well? I take it off for my acoustic to avoid boom, but not for the electric. What do you recommend?

I also leave it on for my backtrack channel to avoid the sound getting thin, but I notice what you refer to. I've thus got the drums, bass, keyboards, etc (everything but vox and guitar) on one channel with low-cut not engaged, and it gets that muggy sound.

As far as vox FX goes, I find the plate reverbs better than others (sparingly), but delay is far more important for vox than reverb IMO.

vic

Riaan C wrote:
Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
singemonkey wrote: Are compressors built into the desks?
Occasionally, but not often on affordable desks. Some of the Yamaha desks have simple one-knob comps and standalone channel strips almost always have bigger, better ones. Most commonly an external unit used on the channel inserts.

Is the high-pass filter just like a button? Or do you have to manually dial in the EQ there?
Usually a button on the desk (might be marked "hipass filter", "low-cut" or just have a EQ slope and a frequency). Better desks will have a frequency range knob too. Should be the first step in any mix to apply to everything but the bass and kick drum - clears up the clarity of the system no end and tightens the bass.
I use this desk - you'll see the one-button compressor (yelow) on the vox channels. I find them pretty decent and easy to use!

The low-cut filter is the button just below the gain. Always off for vox.

@ Alan: should one cut the low for your guitar channel as well? I take it off for my acoustic to avoid boom, but not for the electric. What do you recommend?

I also leave it on for my backtrack channel to avoid the sound getting thin, but I notice what you refer to. I've thus got the drums, bass, keyboards, etc (everything but vox and guitar) on one channel with low-cut not engaged, and it gets that muggy sound.

As far as vox FX goes, I find the plate reverbs better than others (sparingly), but delay is far more important for vox than reverb IMO.

Nice desk Riaan...reminds me of my HH powered mixer (which needs to travel to Karel for a check-up)

AlanRatcliffe

Riaan C wrote: The low-cut filter is the button just below the gain. Always off for vox.

@ Alan: should one cut the low for your guitar channel as well? I take it off for my acoustic to avoid boom, but not for the electric. What do you recommend?

I also leave it on for my backtrack channel to avoid the sound getting thin, but I notice what you refer to. I've thus got the drums, bass, keyboards, etc (everything but vox and guitar) on one channel with low-cut not engaged, and it gets that muggy sound.

Firstly, I think you have "on" and "off" mixed up. If the bass cut is on (button depressed), it cuts the low frequencies below 80Hz.

So it should be on for vocals and guitars. On the mics it'll help you avoid low frequency feedback as well as bass buildup from proximity effect and being stuck in the corner of a small venue.

Highpass should be off for your backtracks, which have your kick and bass - the only instruments with meaningful low end. Most other synthesized instruments already have low end filtered out in the patches, so you can safely leave the highpass filter off on the backtracks without muddying things up.

Yes, with the filter on, the guitar might sound a bit thin and lack power compared to a big guitar amp, but it will sit better in the context of the mix (especially at performance volumes), your mix's low end will tighten up and individual sounds will have more clarity.

Having said that, there are exceptions. I don't use my highpass filters on my guitar sound at the desk - but I'm often solo without backtracks and either drumming on the guitar or have a bass sound coming from the guitar synth. But in those cases I'm usually EQing in my preamps/processors: a highpass and a lowpass on the electric guitar sound (round about 125Hz and 4KHz respectively), scooping out the low mids on the piezo and using a lowpass on the bass sound (set as low as 700Hz).

singemonkey

So how do you deal with the fire-and-forget soundmen? Tactfully ask them if they've considered every point on the list. Might need to buy a lot more tact ?

AlanRatcliffe

singemonkey wrote: So how do you deal with the fire-and-forget soundmen?

Percussive education (You just give 'em a short, sharp shock and they don't do it again). ?

Consider getting your own engineer that you can train up and make him part of the band.

Riaan-Combrink

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Firstly, I think you have "on" and "off" mixed up. If the bass cut is on (button depressed), it cuts the low frequencies below 80Hz.

Sorry - that was the teminologal sloppiness I'm sometimes prone to :-[. I meant I always have it on (depressed) for vocals, and off (not depressed or engaged) for backtrack channel. Was wondering what you thought. So off (not depressed) for backtrack, and on for both guitars and vox is the way to go.

singemonkey

It would be great to have our own sound-guy. A bit of a dream. But it's even more thankless than being a performer. Hmmm... Would be good though. In terms of the overall mix it's also a problem that the guitars are frequently not miked which makes dynamic mixing impossible.

I've learned a lot from this thread already though.

Are the reverbs on desks of sufficient quality? I noticed at practise on Saturday using one club's PA that the 'verb seemed to 'ring' quite a bit. It's interesting that everyone says, "very little 'verb" which I'd always thought was essential. But recently I've found that some vocals in recordings, and even some live stuff (just watched an early '80s TV performance of The Pixies) the vocals have a surprising amount of reverb.

And why would delay be more important to vocals? As in slap-back echo? And this would not be available in the desk presumably?

AlanRatcliffe

singemonkey wrote: Are the reverbs on desks of sufficient quality?

They vary with the quality of the desk.

It's interesting that everyone says, "very little 'verb" which I'd always thought was essential.

'Verb fills out and thickens up the sound, but the listener's brain decodes more reverb as meaning further away, so sounds with more reverb tend to disappear into the mix. It can also mess with intelligibility of words. You can do it, but then the vox will have to be much louder.

But recently I've found that some vocals in recordings, and even some live stuff the vocals have a surprising amount of reverb.

With simpler arrangements and/or instrumentation you can get away with it. The space filling effect effectively fills out the space in the mix. Better reverbs let you adjust density - which can help a lot, as can pre-delays, highpass filters and reverb ducking.

And why would delay be more important to vocals? As in slap-back echo? And this would not be available in the desk presumably?

Slapback yes, but that automatically puts your sound right in the '50s - people associate slapback with rock 'n roll and rockabilly. Delay is like a low density reverb, it fills out the sound without cluttering it up. The problem with delay is it can affect the rhythm and feel of the music.