Exploitation , is it?

IceCreamMan · 2012-06-15T07:40:33+00:00

A thread here got me thinking , and then i thought about a band i sort of know here in ZA , who were invited to play a big show in the states recently ...... the kicker was they had to arrange all their own flights etc at their own cost... and all these muso's who play for free, nay not free cos it actually costs em money...i also know the chap who ran a big festival , 90% of the bands who played his festival played for free persella, gratis and for nothing..... some coming from far away for the honour of doing so. this my dear forumites is nothing short of exploitation imho ..... actors/construction workers/drivers etc etc are unionised and may NOT work for nothing ,employers are prevented from employing ppl not belonging to a union of some sort (in the usa) yet musicians happily play for free, no, in fact they chomp at the bit for that elusive opportunity..... i understand the ambition , the motivation for muso's doing this but viewed in the cold light of day the promoters have an unfair "advantage" and thus exploit the guys....yip it can be dressed up anyway u like just my thoughts on this as a member in a "hobby" band ...nothing more , no offence intended

Bob-Dubery

Vic wrote From another musical angle.....we have the university conservatorium here and once in a while they put on some quartets and soloists during lunch breaks and early evenings....all relatively unknown (student) musicians. However these acts fill the Endler Hall to capacity (1000+)...why ?....the answer lies in quality and excellence which are somehow absent from a few of the regular blues -,rock - or metal outfits that grace the stages of our pubs and smaller venues.

Interesting. I think that's actually quite a different world - if you're talking about classical music - full of things that would not be considered very "rock 'n roll". Like season tickets and corporate sponsorships and playing covers (one way of looking at it). And "seasons". I used to go to listen to the Johannesburg Philharmonic Orchestra fairly regularly. The JPO doesn't have shows every weekend or every second, they have "seasons" (4 or 5 weeks) with a pre-announced playlist for each week of each season. You would know in advance what pieces they would play, who was conducting, who the soloist was for the night. And there's protocol, and an audience that sits and listens and doesn't talk (I once saw a conductor react with some anger when two people walked in late, talking as they did so).

It's a different world from, say, playing at the Pig and Pimp on a Friday night.

Bob-Dubery

X-rated Bob wrote
Vic wrote From another musical angle.....we have the university conservatorium here and once in a while they put on some quartets and soloists during lunch breaks and early evenings....all relatively unknown (student) musicians. However these acts fill the Endler Hall to capacity (1000+)...why ?....the answer lies in quality and excellence which are somehow absent from a few of the regular blues -,rock - or metal outfits that grace the stages of our pubs and smaller venues.
Interesting. I think that's actually quite a different world - if you're talking about classical music - full of things that would not be considered very "rock 'n roll". Like season tickets and corporate sponsorships and playing covers (one way of looking at it). And "seasons". I used to go to listen to the Johannesburg Philharmonic Orchestra fairly regularly. The JPO doesn't have shows every weekend or every second, they have "seasons" (4 or 5 weeks) with a pre-announced playlist for each week of each season. You would know in advance what pieces they would play, who was conducting, who the soloist was for the night. And there's protocol, and an audience that sits and listens and doesn't talk (I once saw a conductor react with some anger when two people walked in late, talking as they did so).

It's a different world from, say, playing at the Pig and Pimp on a Friday night.

Oh... and seeing how this thread started in the first place, do the performers get paid, or is this something they're expected to do as part of (or part payment against) their training?

Hammeron

If you do something well NEVER do it for free.

Bob-Dubery

Hammeron wrote If you do something well NEVER do it for free.

Not sure I agree, though I am not saying that musicians, or anybody else, should just give their skills away. There's a nice story at the moment about a bunch of doctors who have been up in the N Cape in a community where there is a high incidence of colon cancer. The program is partly funded, but several of the doctors and specialist nurses involved did unpaid work.

Some good lawyers do pro bono work - and more strength to them for it.

I know that there are pro musicians on this forum who do fund-raisers for no payment.

What I resist is the presumption that something should be free. It's best summed up by attitude towards "sharing" of music - namely that if the artist wants to give a work away for free then that's OK but it must be the artist's decision, not somebody else deciding that it's OK on whatever grounds are convenient for them.

vic

X-rated Bob wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
Vic wrote From another musical angle.....we have the university conservatorium here and once in a while they put on some quartets and soloists during lunch breaks and early evenings....all relatively unknown (student) musicians. However these acts fill the Endler Hall to capacity (1000+)...why ?....the answer lies in quality and excellence which are somehow absent from a few of the regular blues -,rock - or metal outfits that grace the stages of our pubs and smaller venues.
Interesting. I think that's actually quite a different world - if you're talking about classical music - full of things that would not be considered very "rock 'n roll". Like season tickets and corporate sponsorships and playing covers (one way of looking at it). And "seasons". I used to go to listen to the Johannesburg Philharmonic Orchestra fairly regularly. The JPO doesn't have shows every weekend or every second, they have "seasons" (4 or 5 weeks) with a pre-announced playlist for each week of each season. You would know in advance what pieces they would play, who was conducting, who the soloist was for the night. And there's protocol, and an audience that sits and listens and doesn't talk (I once saw a conductor react with some anger when two people walked in late, talking as they did so).

It's a different world from, say, playing at the Pig and Pimp on a Friday night.
Oh... and seeing how this thread started in the first place, do the performers get paid, or is this something they're expected to do as part of (or part payment against) their training?

For sure it's a different scenario....classical vs rock. No, I'm not sure about payment to these student performers (in kind or otherwise) but the public has to pay to attend. The point I would like to convey is just merely that amateur performers can draw big crowds as a result of the skill and quality of such. Of course one also gets to hear the bigger names from that fraternity and I have no doubt that they get paid (...and very well maybe).

Bob-Dubery

Vic wrote For sure it's a different scenario....classical vs rock. No, I'm not sure about payment to these student performers (in kind or otherwise) but the public has to pay to attend. The point I would like to convey is just merely that amateur performers can draw big crowds as a result of the skill and quality of such. Of course one also gets to hear the bigger names from that fraternity and I have no doubt that they get paid (...and very well maybe).

Hmmmm.... maybe in some corners of the musical universe. But I see a lot of guys who are very, very good at what they do enjoying niche market appeal at most, and some acts who are very big but seem not to have a lot of skills. As always, there's no relationship between the two.

Also in the classical world there's a lot of sponsorship and scholarships going on. Go to a JPO show and buy a programme. You'll see a list of the sponsors (some of them supporting a specific player), and you can see how they're going to buy tickets and dish them out. And it's a world where people will buy season tickets, or see it as some part of the social whirl.

As I said, it's not quite the same as playing at the Pig and Pimp.

Bob-Dubery

X-rated Bob wrote
Vic wrote For sure it's a different scenario....classical vs rock. No, I'm not sure about payment to these student performers (in kind or otherwise) but the public has to pay to attend. The point I would like to convey is just merely that amateur performers can draw big crowds as a result of the skill and quality of such. Of course one also gets to hear the bigger names from that fraternity and I have no doubt that they get paid (...and very well maybe).
Hmmmm.... maybe in some corners of the musical universe. But I see a lot of guys who are very, very good at what they do enjoying niche market appeal at most, and some acts who are very big but seem not to have a lot of skills. As always, there's no relationship between the two.

Though I think in the classical world, where formal training is a must and where there's a sort of academy system and regular exams almost from the time one starts playing, the excellence part of the equation is taken for granted. Everybody going to the shows you describe is confident that whoever they see will have good skills.

Something similar was happening in soul and R&B in the 50s and 60s. Guys like James Brown, Al Green and Ray Charles were a brand in a way, and part of that brand was that you KNEW they would have a really good band behind them. The musicians might come and go (and Brown's did) but you knew that these were guys who could pick good players and run good bands. Often there was a situation that maybe people would resent in this day and age, where the band members were on a retainer, but there were also fines for being late, arriving hung over, bum notes during the show and so on.

vic

X-rated Bob wrote
X-rated Bob wrote
Vic wrote For sure it's a different scenario....classical vs rock. No, I'm not sure about payment to these student performers (in kind or otherwise) but the public has to pay to attend. The point I would like to convey is just merely that amateur performers can draw big crowds as a result of the skill and quality of such. Of course one also gets to hear the bigger names from that fraternity and I have no doubt that they get paid (...and very well maybe).
Hmmmm.... maybe in some corners of the musical universe. But I see a lot of guys who are very, very good at what they do enjoying niche market appeal at most, and some acts who are very big but seem not to have a lot of skills. As always, there's no relationship between the two.
Though I think in the classical world, where formal training is a must and where there's a sort of academy system and regular exams almost from the time one starts playing, the excellence part of the equation is taken for granted. Everybody going to the shows you describe is confident that whoever they see will have good skills.

Something similar was happening in soul and R&B in the 50s and 60s. Guys like James Brown, Al Green and Ray Charles were a brand in a way, and part of that brand was that you KNEW they would have a really good band behind them. The musicians might come and go (and Brown's did) but you knew that these were guys who could pick good players and run good bands. Often there was a situation that maybe people would resent in this day and age, where the band members were on a retainer, but there were also fines for being late, arriving hung over, bum notes during the show and so on.

That's right....everytime I attend a classical performance...even light classicals.....I feel inadequate as a muso.....realising now, more than ever, how important formal training is.

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